Could use some serious help. I keep losing fish

[flambore]

Hello all,
Please bare with me, this message may become long so I give enough info so as to not require a bunch of responses to questions of what I have and haven't already tried.

The short story is, a few months ago, my kids decided they wanted fish. My son was given a ten-gallon tank, and I bought my daughter a five-gallon tank. We went through the bio cycle, and everything appears ok- pH 7.0, Ammonia, Nitrates, Nitrires all zero. We had an over-crowding problem at first in the five-gallon tank, straightened that out, but otherwise, things appear to be good from a beginner standpoint.

The problem is, it just seems like we have a major disease problem, or there's something we don't know about going on. I'll give some more background to follow...

I honestly think the first place we bought the fish just had really bad fish. We did the bio cycle with two penguin tetras in the 5gal tank, and two brilliant rasboras in the 10gal. The penguins eventually died, but were never right. They swam on an angle all the time, and were always jerky and hid constantly. When they died, we replaced them with brilliant rasboras, and they did well. I always made sure I kept the pH and ammonia under control. I did frequent water changes, and I feel I did everything to textbook.

Once the cycles were done, we bought a few fish for the ten-gallon tank. We had the original two Brialliant Rasboras plus a third we added later. We also bought a betta, which died in two days, and four male guppies (we bought two, one died, then bought two more), three of them died. They all looked healthy when we bought them, but they don't seem to last. One of the brilliants had ich, then the whole tank had ich, we treated that. One of the guppies had tail rot, and we treated the whole tank for that. Unfortunately, I don't have a quarrantine tank for new fish, so if one brings it in, they all get it.

Since then, we started buying our fish from another store. Still, some fish don't do well. As of right now, in the five-gallon tank, we have a dalmation molly, three brilliant rasboras and four neons. I know, this is overpopulated, but strangely, this tank does well. We have not lost a fish in this one for awhile. We had a betta in that tank as well, but when we added the molly, the betta got nasty, so we put him in a 1-gallon tank.

The ten-gallon tank is the problem. We have a platty, 3 brilliant rasboras, 3 male guppies and two tiny ghost shrimp. I don't see this as being overpopulated, however they seem strangely agressive to each other- the guppies in particular. The platty sometimes chases one of the guppies because he has some of the same color as him, but for the past three days, that guppy has been sick (shimmy), so we isolated him in a nursing box. He is missing half of his top fin, I assume from the platty and the other two guppies picking on him. For the past week, we haven't lost a fish, but before that, we lost two male bettas (not at the same time, neither were agressive to other fish), an algae eater catfish, three neons, and three male guppies (not all were in the tank at the same time).

It's frustrating to see these fish die, and my son is really getting frustrated because his fish keep dying. Any idea what we are doing wrong? Ich is a pain, but treatable. We haven't had a tail rot problem since that one died a month or so ago, but these other ones just dying. I can't figure it out. They either start shimmying and keel over in a day or two, or just end up dead in the morning with no aparent warning. We wash everything we put into the tank (hot water only). We use net soak cleaner for the nets. We religiously do the 15% water changes weekly, test the pH, ammonia, nitrate and nitrite every few days, keep the temperature constant (a little higher when treating for ich), have added aquarium salt, vacuum the gravel when we change the water, and acclaimate every fish. I just don't know what to do...

One stupid question regarding the filter. The ich meds say to discontinue carbon filtration during the medication process. My daughter's filter is one of those tiny whistler filters that has the carbon and filter media in one. How do I do this? Also, isn't the carbon where the bacteria grows? If I pull that out, won't the bacteria die? How often should I clean the filter and/or replace parts of it? That's the one thing I have not addressed.

I really apologize for the lengthy message, but this is pretty much what we have experienced to date. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

thanks,
Frank

 

[DeFeKt]

I really apologize for the lengthy message

nevermind that
it's a perfect description!

 

[DeFeKt]

and everything appears ok- pH 7.0, Ammonia, Nitrates, Nitrires all zero

aren't nitrates suppose to be 25-40 ish?
I'm absolutly stumped

 

[An t-iasg]

Hi Frank and welcome to Aquarium Advice!

Here are some thoughts: What are your exact parameters of ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate? It is unusual for a tank to have 0 nitrates unless you have live plants. What kind of test kit are you using? Strip test kits, while easy to use, are not always accurate. The test-tube -- reagent test kits are better. I like the Aquarium Pharmaceuticals (Doc Wellfish) brand. You say you keep the ammonia and pH under control -- that's good that you're checking all these parameters often! But in a cycled tank, you don't need to constantly keep the ammonia under control -- the bacteria will do that. Also, artificially adjusting the pH with chemicals like pH up or down will cause stress to the fish. A constant, stable pH of between (roughly, depending on your fish) 6.5 to 7.8 is fine. A pH that varies and "rebounds" due to chemical additions is very stressful. Here's an article on pH: http://www.aquariumadvice.com/showquestion.php?faq=2&fldAuto=40

Bettas can sometimes be good community fish. Females are usually better community fish than males, but sometimes females get really aggessive too. A male betta may or may not be good in a community tank -- it depends on his personality. Also, a 5 gallon tank is small -- each fish will not really have room to have his own territory, so aggession comes out more in a situation like that. Watch the betta in the 1 gallon tank -- this is still too small, ideally, for a betta. Small tanks like this are hard to keep cycled, and they are too small for a heater. Bettas are very susceptable to temperature fluctuations, and may become sick. See my gallery for pictures of my bettas in 5 gallon tanks. Although I don't have some of these bettas pictured anymore, the tank and filter setup is still the same.

A quarantine tank doesn't have to be anything fancy or expensive. It can be a Rubbermaid container, with a sponge filter and a heater, and some plastic plants or PVC pipes for hiding places. (Don't use plastic plants with bettas -- silk plants are better for their delicate fins.)

About your filter -- which tank is the Whisper filter in? I had a filter like this in my QT tank but I don't use it. It didn't keep the tank cycled very well, and I didn't like the media. Carbon will remove medicines from the water, so you do want to run carbon when you are done using medicine (unless it's a QT tank, then you just tear down the tank when you're done with it). Be aware that some meds, like antibiotics, can disrupt the biological filter. They kill the "bad" bacteria, but also can kill off some "good" bacteria, so watch for an ammonia spike if treating with antibiotics in the main tank. Carbon that is more than a week or so old will become a place for the god bacteria to grow also, but there are better media to use for this purpose. It is not necessary to run carbon in a tank all the time. For my 5 gallon tank, I use a sponge filter, and for the 10 gallon tank, there are a lot of filters that are favorites of a lot of members, and they are not expensive. Here are a few:


http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=3610&N=2004+22769
http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=12320&N=2004+22769

Hope this helped a little!

 

[FawnN]

The cause of death could be many reasons. What are your water parameters now? Your cycle is not complete until your ammonia and nitrItes are at zero and your are getting a nitrAte reading.

It sounds like your tank is trying to cycle, but you have an over populated tank. First, your betta should not be put in with any other fish, especially guppies. Tetra's belong in a small school of at least 4 or more. If they are not, it could cause stress and ocassionaly fin nipping.

Mollies IMO are very prone to fin rot and other diseases if they are not in a brackish environment.

The ten-gallon tank is the problem. We have a platty, 3 brilliant rasboras, 3 male guppies and two tiny ghost shrimp. I don't see this as being overpopulated,

I personally believe you are. When fish are confined in a small tank, they will tend to pick on each other, especially if they sense one is ill.

We wash everything we put into the tank (hot water only).

What exactly do you mean by this?

One stupid question regarding the filter. The ich meds say to discontinue carbon filtration during the medication process.

If the carbon filter was in the tank more then 7 days prior to you adding the meds, there is no need to remove. The carbon becomes inactive after a week. As for killing the bacteria, most meds would have already done that. Check the box to see if it says anything about not disturbing your biological filter. Cycling your tank and treating ich at the same time can become tricky.

My suggestion would be, do not buy anymore fish until you get your water situation under control. Test your water often. If you are getting an ammonia or nitrite reading, that means your tank is not cycled.

Keep up with your water changes and everything should work out.

 

[DeFeKt]

First, your betta should not be put in with any other fish, especially guppies

In ur opinion maybe so...

 

[flambore]

and everything appears ok- pH 7.0, Ammonia, Nitrates, Nitrires all zero

aren't nitrates suppose to be 25-40 ish?
I'm absolutly stumped

Wow! I wake up to a ton of answers! Thanks friends!

I will double check this later today, but I know it had been that high at one point, but is now and has been at zero.

I am using the Aquatic Pharmaceuticals kits. I have seperate kits for pH, Ammonia, Nitrite and Nitrate.

 

[flambore]

Hi Frank and welcome to Aquarium Advice!

Here are some thoughts: What are your exact parameters of ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate? It is unusual for a tank to have 0 nitrates unless you have live plants. What kind of test kit are you using? Strip test kits, while easy to use, are not always accurate. The test-tube -- reagent test kits are better. I like the Aquarium Pharmaceuticals (Doc Wellfish) brand.

I use that kind (Aquarium Pharmaceuticals). They're the test-tube kind, not test strips. No live plants.

You say you keep the ammonia and pH under control -- that's good that you're checking all these parameters often! But in a cycled tank, you don't need to constantly keep the ammonia under control -- the bacteria will do that. Also, artificially adjusting the pH with chemicals like pH up or down will cause stress to the fish. A constant, stable pH of between (roughly, depending on your fish) 6.5 to 7.8 is fine. A pH that varies and "rebounds" due to chemical additions is very stressful. Here's an article on pH: http://www.aquariumadvice.com/showquestion.php?faq=2&fldAuto=40

I should have been clearer on this. I meant that I did this regularly throughout the cycle. Now that the cycle is complete, I don't have to do this.

Bettas can sometimes be good community fish. Females are usually better community fish than males, but sometimes females get really aggessive too. A male betta may or may not be good in a community tank -- it depends on his personality. Also, a 5 gallon tank is small -- each fish will not really have room to have his own territory, so aggession comes out more in a situation like that. Watch the betta in the 1 gallon tank -- this is still too small, ideally, for a betta. Small tanks like this are hard to keep cycled, and they are too small for a heater. Bettas are very susceptable to temperature fluctuations, and may become sick. See my gallery for pictures of my bettas in 5 gallon tanks. Although I don't have some of these bettas pictured anymore, the tank and filter setup is still the same.

The bettas were fine in both tanks until I added one type or another. In the 10-gallon tank, he was fine until we added too many fish. I think overpopulation made him aggressive. We put him into one of those 1-gallon tanks, and he died. I'm not at all a fan of keeping bettas in small environments, however we had to do something. Unfortunately, it wasn't the right something. My daughter's betta is still in the 1-gallon, and I have been changing most of the water out regularly, and that has been working, but I still don't like it. Hers was very docile until we added a molly. Could also be because it was overpopulated.

A quarantine tank doesn't have to be anything fancy or expensive. It can be a Rubbermaid container, with a sponge filter and a heater, and some plastic plants or PVC pipes for hiding places. (Don't use plastic plants with bettas -- silk plants are better for their delicate fins.)

About your filter -- which tank is the Whisper filter in? I had a filter like this in my QT tank but I don't use it. It didn't keep the tank cycled very well, and I didn't like the media. Carbon will remove medicines from the water, so you do want to run carbon when you are done using medicine (unless it's a QT tank, then you just tear down the tank when you're done with it). Be aware that some meds, like antibiotics, can disrupt the biological filter. They kill the "bad" bacteria, but also can kill off some "good" bacteria, so watch for an ammonia spike if treating with antibiotics in the main tank. Carbon that is more than a week or so old will become a place for the god bacteria to grow also, but there are better media to use for this purpose. It is not necessary to run carbon in a tank all the time. For my 5 gallon tank, I use a sponge filter, and for the 10 gallon tank, there are a lot of filters that are favorites of a lot of members, and they are not expensive. Here are a few:


http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=3610&N=2004+22769
http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=12320&N=2004+22769

Hope this helped a little!

I will check on what kind of filter I have in the 10gallon. The whisper is in the 5-gallon. The 10-gallon has two filters- an UGF and a top filter. Both tanks also have air stones.

I see a common theme here.
1) overpopulation. I will not buy more fish for these tanks. We have not bought any in quite some time.
2) nitrate count - not sure what's up with this. I will check into this. The bio cycle was done for at least a week before we added more than the two brilliant rasboras we started with. I wanted to make sure the cycle was complete.
3) crappy filter? I will check on this.


Now, regarding the carbon filter- the filter in the 10-gallon has 3 parts, each that can be taken apart or out. There's a sponge at the bottom, a packet of carbon, and a bag of little white ceramic blocks. When the meds say to discontinue carbon usage, do I need to remove the carbon pack completely, or just take it out of the filter. I don't remember which part of the filter keeps the bacteria in it, and I don't want to lose that. I thought it was in the carbon sack. oh, and the UGF has a little carbon block at the top of it also.

Regarding meds, here's what I'm using (when needed):
Tail rot: Meracyn-two
ick: watercare ick away, and just ran out, so I got a bottle of Jungle Labs Ick guard.
damaged fins: Melafix - just started using this for the one guppy
for water changes: I also have stess coat and aquarium salt.

During the cycle, I used stress zyme and ammo lock.

thanks again for all the help. I will post back with the filter types and actual readings later today.

Frank

 

[flambore]

The cause of death could be many reasons. What are your water parameters now? Your cycle is not complete until your ammonia and nitrItes are at zero and your are getting a nitrAte reading.

It sounds like your tank is trying to cycle, but you have an over populated tank. First, your betta should not be put in with any other fish, especially guppies. Tetra's belong in a small school of at least 4 or more. If they are not, it could cause stress and ocassionaly fin nipping.

Mollies IMO are very prone to fin rot and other diseases if they are not in a brackish environment.

as of right now, the betta is alone. The neons are in a school of four. The molly is one of the fortunate, healthy ones.

The ten-gallon tank is the problem. We have a platty, 3 brilliant rasboras, 3 male guppies and two tiny ghost shrimp. I don't see this as being overpopulated,

I personally believe you are. When fish are confined in a small tank, they will tend to pick on each other, especially if they sense one is ill. [/quote]
This is what I have observed as well. We have not bought any more fish since, and will keep a lower population moving ahead.

We wash everything we put into the tank (hot water only).

What exactly do you mean by this?

To clean things, we run them under the faucet running hot water for a period of time. No soap.

One stupid question regarding the filter. The ich meds say to discontinue carbon filtration during the medication process.

If the carbon filter was in the tank more then 7 days prior to you adding the meds, there is no need to remove. The carbon becomes inactive after a week. As for killing the bacteria, most meds would have already done that. Check the box to see if it says anything about not disturbing your biological filter. Cycling your tank and treating ich at the same time can become tricky.

My suggestion would be, do not buy anymore fish until you get your water situation under control. Test your water often. If you are getting an ammonia or nitrite reading, that means your tank is not cycled.

Keep up with your water changes and everything should work out.

The carbon has been in the tank from day one. I didn't treat for ick until after the cycle was complete.

Thanks for the advice.
Frank

 

[flambore]

Ok, here's more info...

Both tanks have exactly the same readings:
pH - 7.2 - 7.6 (somewhere between these two)
Ammonia - 0
Nitrite - 0
Nitrate - 0 - I double-checked this. The color is a little darker than the 0, but not quite as dark as the 5.0.

The filters I am using:

5 gallon: Whisper internal microfilter w/ Topfin Small Bio 3 filter cartridge

10 gallon: under-ground filter on half the tank plus an AquaClear Power Filter 20. It has 3 filters- foam, carbon and biomax, and filters 100gph.

The 1gallon betta tank just has an UGF, which I was told is useless.

I made one error in my description above. I said the pH maintained at 7. I always seem to have to fight with the pH. My father-in-law believes maybe the filters buffer the pH to a higher level. Is this possible? Is it ok at 7.4-7.6?

thanks.
Frank

 

[An t-iasg]

Hi Frank,
If your bioload is pretty small, you could have a very low nitrate reading. Keep checking to verify that you're cycled. How old is the test? I don't think they have expiration dates, but I get a new test kit after a year or year and a half. Also, with that nitrate test, the directions say to shake the reagent bottle and the test tube for 30 seconds and a minute -- this is the hard part! The directions claim that for accuracy you have to shake for the time specified, so make sure you're following the directions. I have a hard time with this, so I get my husband to shake them for me!

I'm not a fan of the Whisper internal filters. I have one in my QT tank and I run it without media, just for some water movement. A sponge filter would be a good filter for the 5 gallon tank. In the 10 gallon, the Aqua Clear 20 is a great filter. You don't need the undergravel filter, and it may gunk up and raise your ammonia over the long run. I would leave it alone for now, until you're absolutely sure you're cycled. When you are and the Aqua Clear has enough good bacteria in it, I would take out the UGF. Do a water change after you remove it because there will probably be a lot of gunk floating around.

You don't need to run carbon in the AquaClear all the time. Instead of carbon, you could put in another foam block for more biological and mechanical filtration. During a water change, alternate the sponge that you take out and rinse in the removed tank water, not tap water. You don't have to do this every week, just when they look clogged up with debris.

The pH will be fine at 7.4 to 7.6. You don't need to adjust the pH all the time -- this will cause fish stress. Read the article I linked for more information on pH. To see if your pH is rising in the aquarium, pour a glass of tap water and test the pH. Let that glass sit for 24 hours (called "aging") and then test again, and compare with the first reading. Ideally you should pour your replacement water for a water change the day before and let it age, if your tap water's pH is prone to change as it ages. If your pH settles down at 7.4 or 7.6, that's fine.

 

[malkore]

First, your betta should not be put in with any other fish, especially guppies

In ur opinion maybe so...

Ehh, it's a valid opinion for the guppies. A male betta is as likely to attack fancy male guppies as he is to leave them alone. Some betta's are mean, some aren't. I had a red veil tail kill two mail guppies and shred a 3rd's tail before I got him out.