Crazy Die-Off

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Super_Blueberry

Aquarium Advice FINatic
Joined
Jan 1, 2012
Messages
661
Location
Esko, MN
Alright. I know its long, but I hope its detailed enough. I've had this tank set up for over a year now, with no major problems until this past 6 weeks. Around the beginning of December I had one Black Molly die out of the blue. Didn't think too much of it as it was a year old. About this time I went to the store and bought a few fish to restock what I have lost over the past 6 months. Then I had another Molly die a couple days later. That struck me as odd but oh well, it happens. Then it just kept happening, a Neon, a Guppy, a Platy.... basically a fish or two every few days. I knew something was wrong after the 3rd or 4th death, but I would wake up to find them dead. No signs of illness, no odd behavior, no nothing. I added some aquarium salt since I heard that a lot of diseases can't handle even a trace of salt in the tank. Then I noticed a guppy with what looked like cotton mouth. I figured it was just a fungal infection that came with some new stock I picked up when the first fish passed. Started dosing Melafix which has worked good in the past for me the last time I had cotton mouth.

That was the weekend before Christmas. Daily doses of Melafix, and one maybe two more fish that week died... better than what it had been. Went out of town for a long weekend for New Years, came home 4 days later and no evidence of any lost fish. Perfect, solved.

Then the problem started up again. Got another bottle of Melafix, and also got Primafix in case I was treating the wrong disease. Today, I had 4 dead fish this morning. Checked the parameters...again: 0 Amm, 0 ites, 5 ates. pH 6.4 which is normal for my tank with co2. Did a normal 60-70% pwc, and noticed a lot of fish gasping for air when it was done. Odd, but thought maybe they were thinking the micro bubbles at the surface from the Melafix was food. ( During the water change, I added my prime, melafix, primafix, and dry ferts. ) When I noticed the gasping, I added a couple tablespoons of aquarium salt to help the breathing and turned off the lights for the afternoon. Checked in on them an hour later and they seemed to be swimming and breathing just fine.

Just came back home, turned on the lights and I noticed that every fish, snail, and rcs was at the surface gasping. Everyone. ( No, I didn't actually see the shrimp gasping, but I have never seen more than 1 or 2 at the surface at a time before.)

Time to panic.

I did three 50% pwc's back to back. Would have done more but I ran out of hot water. Probably do another one tonight though. Turned off the co2 and turned on my air stone. After the changes, most of the fish are swimming normally, but there are still a couple at the surface. I did pull out most of the shrimp and got them into my 10g, but I have pulled out 3 more dead neons, a dead bloodfin, and a half dozen dead shrimp.

Details:
*55g heavily planted freshwater community tank.
*Constant temp of 74
*Set up over a year ago.
*Had been running an HOB filter rated for up to 60, swapped it out for a Fluval 406 Friday night. Put the floss in the 406 to seed it, and levels were perfect this morning.
*Had been dosing Trace, started PPS scheduled dry ferts the week after Thanksgiving. ;
Recipe I'm using is Macro: 1 liter distilled water with 59 grams K2SO4, 65 grams KNO3, 6 grams KH2PO4, 41 grams MgSO4, 5ml Excel. Micro: 1 liter distilled water with 80 grams CSM+B, 5ml Excel. 5ml each daily. Dose opposite sides of tank.
*Have had pressurized CO2 since this summer, but the tank is just about empty
*Added a power head to help circulation around Thanksgiving, took out with the 406 addition Friday.

First few deaths I was thinking the power head. It went from a pretty calm tank to having a good current, so I thought maybe the added exercise was too much and I gave them a heart attack or something. Then as more died, I figured I brought something with the new fish, but no idea what., so I added a mild dose of aquarium salt. Then the cotton mouth / fungal signs, so I started dosing melafix. Then New Years weekend. Nothing was added, no medicine, no ferts, etc. Then when I come home and start the ferts again and the problem comes back. So I'm thinking the ferts at the problem....somehow. Maybe my scale isn't even close to accurate. Maybe a bad batch of dry ferts from GLA. So instead of daily doses, I do every other day. No change, and 4 dead fish this morning. Could the near empty co2 tank be the problem? Perhaps something in there that shouldn't be? I'm thinking no. That leaves the medicine. Could the Melafix and Primafix be the problem?

My current theory into TONIGHTS genocide is that when I added the Meds, the prime, ferts, and salt during this mornings water change, some kind of lethal combination was created. But what about the past 6 weeks? Same thing but not as drastic since it wasn't all at once?

Another thought I don't even want to think is that I brought home columnaris, but I do know it can look like a fungal infection....

Thoughts? What did I do wrong? What am I over looking?
 
Wow! Ok I'm reading this on my cell which is a pain in the rear- I will go through the whole post on my computer when I get a chance so I can see what I am missing here (which is probably a lot!!) because I can't read back through it at the moment.

You did mention something that caught my attention though. Exactly how many times have you seen what you described as fungus? Are all these fish deceased now? Did this occur prior to adding ANY new fish or as you have added new ones over the months?
 
Wow

I'm sorry about your fish! :nono: It's terrible when these things happen! Your shrimp are possibly having a problem because there may be copper in the medication. Keep us posted and good luck.
 
Copper isn't listed as an ingredient in the meds, and its safe for reef inverts, but doesn't mention shrimp or snails. I have used it in the past w/o problems with shrimp deaths, but never both at the same time, so maybe...I don't know.

As far as seeing fungus, I had one guppy with a mouth that was full of it so it probably couldn't breath or eat, and he ended up belly up. 1 or 2 others had decay or rot around their mouth as well. Didn't end up good for them either. I also had a platy with a white splotch on its side, but that faded and he is doing fine now ( other than tonight). The first 6-8 didn't have any signs of anything, even after death. Not even signs of being eaten by the others as they do. Since that, most have had some sign of serious tail rot...like no tail left what so ever when I find them. One guppy I found swimming with a stump for a tail, and the back half of its body cloudy. Froze him. Then tonight I think they were all just suffocating for some reason, and some couldn't handle it.

It's been a few hours since panic mode, and everything seems normal. All I added after the 3 pwc's tonight was prime, and I think I'll keep the air stone on for now. Quite frankly I'm scared to add anything else to the tank, ferts, meds, co2.... anything other than prime.... Until I hear what the experts on here have to say.
 
The last time I added fish other than a month ago was back in August or September....some neons and harlequin raspboras. No problems then. The last time I had a problem was in the summer when I made an impulse buy at Petco when I got some food. I had a minor breakout when I got a couple blue coral ves. I'll never get fish from there again. Nothing but problems. Anyway, Melafix cleared that up in a few days. Only lost a neon or two then. Heck, i haven't even had ich since I started the tank in '11 and didn't have any idea what I was doing.
 
Ok, theres alot of info here and I am not a high tech plant expert. I am sure you asked and asked again about dosing schedules, proper ratios of different components, checking CO2 levels, etcetc. Unless there was something contaminated or improperly mixed in your macro/micro mix that you started the end of Nov, I have to rule this out for now but you may want to double check your numbers with the plant experts to be sure. Running CO2 and dosing Excel seems a bit excessive to me but perhaps this is the norm for your setup as well. I would also make sure your CO2 setup is running correctly to rule out any issues with this & the gasping fish although melafix/pimafix can cause fish to gasp as well. Melafix/pimafix have the same active ingredient so double dosing likely didnt help your fishs ability to breathe as well- its an oil & it will coat their gill membranes affecting their ability to assimilate oxygen (same for the shrimp). I highly doubt adding a powerhead resulted in fish demise unless they were being sucked into it.

Ok, next topic. The first molly death that you had I think was just a coincidence and not related to everything right now. You then added new fish and everything went kinda haywire and the problems have been basically happening since this. You have white fuzz on their mouthes, some on their bodies, breathing difficulties, severe fin rot and deaths that occur overnight with no symptoms. Does this sound about right or am I totally off base here?
 
Yup. That last paragraph pretty much sums it up. Exactly what I was thinking....something came in the last batch. The last round of fish came from a local shop, but not my normal one. I have bought a few guys from them in the past w/o problems, unlike petco where every fish I get there has something, usually Ich. Haven't gotten anything from them in over 6 months. I have a couple 10g tanks that are currently being used as nurseries. I always wanted to use one as a QT, but its always been occupied. I do know that one will be a QT from now on though.

The excel was done before I added co2, and since then it was only used to spot treat algae. The trace I haven't used since I started dosing pps. I didn't see how it could be the ferts either, but it was something I added around the time this all started, so I haven't completely ruled it out. Is there a recommended test kit out there to test the various level of magnesium, phosphates, etc,?

The 'double' dose of melafix/primafix makes sense making them gasp. And I didn't know that it made them gasp in the first place, so I learned something already.

Another thought I had... When I add the ferts and the meds, I just kinda dump it in. If a fish swims thru it before it has a chance to dissipate, could that cause problems? It never appeared to be a problem in the past, but maybe in a weakened state it's more harmful. I know it happens but I never paid attention to see if the culprit ends up belly up.
 
You have white fuzz on their mouthes, some on their bodies, breathing difficulties, severe fin rot and deaths that occur overnight with no symptoms. Does this sound about right or am I totally off base here?

The only part I would change is its not a fuzz so much as a discoloration/lack of color in one area on the body, and that was just one fish. By the mouth if it was a fuzz, it was one large mass of it. Kind of a solid ring around the inside of its mouth. Maybe some type of swelling. The rest were just severe and sudden fin rot, and the discoloration I would expect to see a few hours after death. That one guppy with the complete lack of tail and white back half was the worst I've seen, but the other recent losses, other than this evening, had at least 50% of their tails gone.
 
Well I checked the tank this morning, and sure enough, there's another dead neon. Fins are intact but the belly has been eaten out. I'm not going to add anything to the tank today, just keep the air running and the temp up around 80.

Doing a head count: lost around 20 fish since December. 10-12 I woke up to find dead, no obvious signs. 3-4 showed severe rot or something, and 4-5 I lost during last nights fiasco, but I'm not attributing to the mystery illness, but to my lack of knowledgable treatments.
 
I've no clue about ferts or co2 but I do know that I had something similar happen to a male guppy. He was fine when I woke up in the morning, just a bit of fin rot which I had been battling since I got him. I went out for about 1 1/2 hours and came back to him dead and his tail looking horrid, like the spikes of an umbrella. He had some white fungus on him. He had been eating and swimming fine. All my levels were perfect. No other fish showing signs. I think it was the fin rot that finally got him- maybe that's what is happening for you?
 
Bare with me here- my computer crashed do I'm trying to do this from from cell. Yes, there tests for phosphate, calcium, magnesium, potassium etc. API makes them as well as some others. I have never used them but I know they are common in sw. I would send msg to Aquachem for specific info and recommended brands. He also would be able to help in respect to feet dosing schedule, etc.

Ok, here's my take on your situation. I think you likely have a columnaris/similar bacterial infection in your tank introduced by the new fish. The weakest fish die before they even have symptoms. The stronger fish are holding on and fighting it and showing more typical symptoms such as white on their mouthes & severe fin rot. I would treat based on this with kanamycin or kana/fura combo and reduced temps. This is a good article on it- please ask if you have questions!

http://www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Columnaris.html
 
I feel your pain... My planted tank's been running for just over a year as well and I just went through a big die off. The final culprit for me turned out to be what I think was columnaris. It only showed up visibily on my tetras, but my loaches, catfish, and guppies were dropping like flies.

I would avoid the pimafix/melafix as already suggested, as it does cause breathing issues. If you have any labyrinth fish (gourami, betta, etc), it can actually cause long-term damage their labyrinth organ. What finally seemed to end the die-off for me was a round of Maracyn (it's gram positive, but they claim that's their formula that works best on columnaris), followed by a round of Maracyn 2 (their gram negative formula). You actually can dose both at the same time safely if you really want to nuke the crap out of whatever bug it is. Once I finished the Maracyn 2 I stopped noticing tufts on my tetras and haven't lost any fish since... That was about a week ago.

The only other possible red flag I saw was that you're getting near the end of your CO2 tank... Depending on how well your set-up is working, I've heard you can have issues toward the end of the tank... You'd have to check with the CO2 experts for more info, as all my info is second hand as I'm still using Excel until I can afford a CO2 set-up. Either way, it may be worth refilling the tank just to be safe.

Hope this helps, and best of luck to you!
 
I hope that your remaining fish don't die. Sorry for your losses.
 
Well I came home tonight and who's left seems to have survived the day. I'm still wanting to figure out, or at least narrow it down as to what I'm battling before I add any new meds. If they do keep dying on me, I'll probably try the maracyn or something else just to see if I can't take back control of my tank. If they all make it through the night, I'll get my co2 tank refilled tomorrow and start it up again. Then start the ferts in a few days if all goes well. Last thing I want is to battle an algae outbreak on top of this.
 
Surprise. Woke up this morning.... One pristella tetra belly up. No sign of any physical damage to its body or it's fins. Getting maracyn this afternoon.
 
Please do not get regular maracyn- its erythromycin which is a gram positve antibiotic. It will not help here. Maracyn2 (minocycline) would be a better choice.
 
Awesome. Conflicting information. I'll pick up both versions and do some research. Thanks for a heads up!
 
Columnaris & the large majority of fish infections are gram negative infections. Minocycline (maracyn2) is a gram negative antibiotic (though not the best out there). Despite what may be claimed on the Maracyn box, it does not treat gram negative infections because its a gram positive antibiotic (erythromycin). If there is some gram positive aspect to your issue (we dont know withoutlab tests), you can do a combined treatment of maracyn & maracyn2 for a broader spectrum of treatment. They are safe to be used together.
 
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