Edit OH NO !!!!!!!! Whats the norm for unexplained deaths ?

[Devilishturtles]

Melafix has very mild antibiotic properties and is for external use only. The antibiotics will get everything in the tank.

What's left now?

So sorry about the other losses. Pandas are sensitive...but with how well you acclimated it just seems weird they'd still die AFTER weeks. I dunno.

 

[joannde]

Its all a mystery. I was so upset after finding the pandas that I went to be at 9pm just so it could be a new day !!! Thankfully there are no losses overnight. Here's the answers to some questions:

questions:
1. how long has the tank been setup? and cycled?

Set up on April 10. Fishless cycle that stalled in late April, so I then added bio-spira. Added fish the day after the bio-spira once the nitrites were at .25 , the day after that nitrites were 0. Haven't had any spikes yet. Highest level of nitrates ever experienced has been 20 (last week) just before my water change.


2. fish dying continuously either had a problem coming from the LFS or its your tank. im betting its your tank.

The fish were purchased from 3 different stores. I've stopped using one of them since I've found it less than great (dirty tanks, many dead fish, etc). Two of the current (surviving) occupants are from this particular LFS.
So I agree - its my tank

3. please list:
a. tank size
29 G, 30W x 12D x 18H

b. tank inhabitants
who's left: 1 panda cory, 1 neon, 5 platies, 12 mystery snails


c. temp you keep tank
82 (room temp). Had it up to 88 for 3 wks during ick treatment (heat only, no salt)


d. filter, substrate, heater, air pump
Whisper 60 filter, bottomless with scatter glass beads as substrate, Sleath 100W heater, Whisper 20 airpump (one 12" bubble wall)


e. medications or live plants added
No meds. Only live plant is L. Repens that I got from another AA member. Remaining live plants arrive in the mail today.


f. how you found each fish (dead)
2 of the 8 neons had heart attacks while I did a water change (it wasn't the temp or pH) - one got accidentally sucked into the gravel vac for a few seconds. Of the other 6 I found 2 bodies. the remaining 4 were probably eaten by the snails before I could find them.
1 platy - on the bottom. 1 betta - lost inside a hollow ornament. 3 pandas - on the bottom.

The first fish (platies and neons) were acclimated in the bag over an hour. The otos and pandas were drip acclimated for 3+ hrs in a bucket (but still in the bag), then netted and added to the tank.

I guess I'll be treating with antibiotics and doing lots of water changes since my good bacteria are going to die now. Thankfully I just ordered a python so hopefully it will get here VERY soon.

Thanks again for the help and support. If I can make it through this without tearing the tank down and turning it into a plant only terrarium than I'll really start to consider myself a fishkeeper !!!

 

[Devilishturtles]

I guess I'll be treating with antibiotics and doing lots of water changes since my good bacteria are going to die now. Thankfully I just ordered a python so hopefully it will get here VERY soon.

Madel Labs claims that their product does NOT harm the biofilter... I'm read of peoples experiences on here where it ahs affected theirs, and some where it has not. I used it to treat dropsy and it did not affect my water quality. I'm not sure what it is about it. But definitley keep an eye on it and best of luck in treatment. I hope it works.

 

[chotie]

i dont know how warm it gets in your house but is it possible a heat spike could bring the degrees over 85+? if you are running the heater at 82, room temp could push it hotter, which is also not including lamp light. i havent kept neons in temps over 80. im not sure on platy/oto tolerance of high heat.

also, having a bead substrate might not be totally best. it is pretty but not like a fish' natural habitat. could have an impact on the less hardy of species of fw.

if treating with meds, be sure to take out the carbon filter package inside your whisper. it will negate the effects if left in. an option is to take out your sponge and put it inside a bucket of tank water. replace with a new sponge so as not to destroy the beneficial bacteria on the sponge. i wouldnt go that far though as a mini-cycle (if it happens) isnt that bad if you watch those water parameters.

gluck.

 

[tropicfishman]

I didn't even go through a cycle before I added my first fish, I didn't even have test kits to check the water during the cycle, since I set up the tank in december I've only lost two fish, one tiger barb ( unexplained ) and a betta who was mangled to pieces ( really odd since it had been in the tank with the barbs since the beggining and there was never a problem )

 

[joannde]

I work from home, so I'm always at the tank - there weren't any changes in the temp that I noticed, so I don't think that's it - but I do appreciate the thought. Perhaps I'll take the heater out until the fall (which in Florida means DECEMBER ! LOL) - why take the risk ?

I bought Maracyn 1 and Maracyn 2 today. My plants also arrived in the mail today. Tomorrow I'll clean up as much of the diatoms that I can and do a water change while they are freefloating. Then I'll add the plants, refill the tank and start the antibiotic treatments.

I have another tank that I can take the filter from to seed this tank if the meds do affect the biofilter. Hopefully my Python will arrive in the mail within a few days to make the water change work a little easier.

Wish me luck !!!!!!!!!!! I have a feeling I'm going to need it

 

[verucaproduce]

I think that you have decided to do the right thing.

I just wanted to add (and you might be doing this already) that if you do have another tank that you do maintenance on, I would be careful not to use the same tools in both tanks. Depending on what has been the cause of death, you could possibly infect the other tank.

I wish you good luck and please keep us posted.

 

[joannde]

Thanks verucaproduce - good point on the tools - esp the new Python that should be coming soon, I hadn't even thought about that !
Is there a way to disinfect a Python ? I can use it on the 29G only for now but eventually I'd like to be able to use it on the other tanks.

 

[crazyred]

One thing that jumped out at me just now......panda cories are cooler water fish. Their natrual habitat is a river in Peru fed by melting snow. IMO, you temprature was way too high for them. Their temp range is listed as 66-82 degrees. A fellow that I have been talking to that breeds Pandas won't let his tank get any higher than 75 degrees because he told me that they seem to get stressed by this.

This doesn't explain your other fish deaths, but I thought it might give you an insight on what could have happened to your pandas. I'm sorry for all you losses....I recently experienced quite the same thing, unexplained mass fish die-off. I believe mine was CO2 poisoning from my DIy co2 set-up

EDIT: here's a link on the panda cory...though it might help, but you have probably already checked into this.

http://www.fishprofiles.com/files/profiles/631.htm

 

[joannde]

Hi Crazyred. Thats a good point on the panda cories. In retrospect many of the species that have perished have been known to be more sensitive (otos, pandas and guppies sometimes). There is one surviving neon and one surviving panda ..... this is the thing that confuses me most. Are they just VERY tough little individuals who have managed to live through a bacterial infection ? or have they just not gotten it yet ? or do I not have one and its just my choice in species that was too much too soon (ie: didn't let the tank fully establish).
I have the meds but haven't started to use them yet - I hate to put my fish through them if they don't need them but the only other option is to see if I keep having die offs.
I really loved those panda cories ..... if only this room (my office) were air conditioned ....

(aw, I'm watching the one panda swimming around the newly planted tank - he really does look happy, albeit lonely)

 

[verucaproduce]

I disinfect my gravel vac occasionally by putting it in a diluted bleach solution, letting it sit and then rinsing it a lot. After I rinse, I rinse some more and then I leave it in a bucket of water along with a lot of dechlor.

I am not sure how intricate the parts are on a python or if it would rinse well. Maybe someone else will step in and answer that for you.

I still wouldn't swap tools until you are able to pinpoint the problem. I only swap tools between my healthy tanks, and even then it is a bit of a risk.

 

[joannde]

I'll have to look at the Python when it comes. I needed the 50 ft length so the entire tubing would need to be disinfected. I like the idea of the bucket - I'm sure I could figure out a way to get some diluted bleach solution throughout the entire tubing, even if I have to do it 6 inches at a time. Rinsing will be easy since I can just run fresh water through it and right back down the drain.
Since its summer water changes aren't that bad right now - the tank is near the back door so I can just use the vac I have and let it run outside (as I have been) and using the outdoor hose to refill (which is the way I currently do it). I'll save the Python for the healthy tanks until whatever this is in the 29G is erradicated.

By the way - I planted the tank today and I noticed one little fry in the tank - I assume its a Platy, I hope he makes it - it'll give me some hope. Of course it makes me even more afraid to use the antibotics now ---- I thought aquariums were supposed to REDUCE stress ! LOL

 

[chotie]

I thought aquariums were supposed to REDUCE stress ! LOL

once up and running its one of the few things that can calm me down.

 

[SCFatz]

Anyway you could get a pic for us?

Sorry for all the deaths...no doubt that completely blows.Frustarting as all heck I would imagine.

I'm wondering about the tank appearence because it seems like it might me a little strange to the fish maybe?...I'm only guessing about that...and I mean 100% guessing.

The plants are a move in the right direction...i would also consider some substrate as well.....the idea being to make the tank a little more natural feeling on the inside....that in turn might result in less stressed fish,hence healthier fish?Maybe?

thats what I would be considering if I were in your shape right now...but I really don't know if it would help....just don't think it would hurt.

Figured I may as well type it in while thinking about it.
Hope things turn around for you soon.

 

[joannde]

Thanks Fatz - appreciate the thoughts. I just posted pics of the tank (post planting) in the planted tank forum
http://www.aquariumadvice.com/viewtopic.php?t=81892

I do like the barebottom as it is MUCH cleaner and really is interesting "from below" but I hear ya on the "unnaturalness" - maybe the plants will alleviate some of that.

 

[verucaproduce]

This is a wild guess, but could the ornaments be causing this? Maybe pH swings or putting some other chemical into the tank? Or have these been thoroughly tested?

 

[joannde]

Ceramics are pretty much inert and I've used food safe glazes. I also had losses before I put them in. Plus my bettas have had them for some time without a problem.
I run water tests quite frequently, and esp after a loss so pH swings, ammonia and nitrites are not the issue either.

My bet is on either stress or a bacterial infection.

I'm not too sure about the stress thing since the 3 pandas I just lost were in there for anywhere from 2 - 6 weeks.

No losses in the past two days (hooray !) and the remaining panda is MUCH more active since yesterday when I planted the tank, which WOULD indicate stress.

Keep the thoughts coming - I really want to get to the bottom of this.

Thanks

 

[Elle2]

Hi Joannde,

Sorry to hear about your losses. I know how vigilant you are and how attached to your fish you are, so it must be particularly difficult.

Having started around the same time as you I have very little to add and this is just a whim.. but is it possible that maybe your acclimatization method is taking a little too long and stressing the fish for too long? Probably not, and it sounds like a great method, but I wonder if cutting it from 4 hours to 2 might help a little. That won't explain all the losses, but maybe the guppies and oto and some of the neons? I don't know, just a stab in the dark, but I always find my fish are very stressed in the bag and holding container.

Also, were any of the fish added during the high temp ich treatment? Perhaps even with the acclimatization they just couldn't adjust? Especially if they were kept at even lower than 82 (I know alot of store here keep the temp around 77).

I hope you get this figured out soon.

 

[joannde]

Hi Elle - haven't seen you around, glad to see you.

I've acclimated anywhere from 1 hr to 4 hrs and the results and the losses occurred with all intervals - but it was a good guess. I didn't add any fish during the ich treatment.

............... and now I think I have ich again !!! no spots, but two fish are flashing.

So I'm once again raising the temp (but since this room is unairconditioned its only a 4 degree change to get it to 88 !!) and I'm going to start the antibiotics also.

How insane can things get !