EMERGENCY:<Sick Von Rio> Help with diagnosis before it's too late? (Lots of info.)

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mandy2936

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Jul 7, 2010
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Emergency: Swim Bladder- Can anyone help my fish to get better?

Brief Info
Hi,
I'm going to try to keep this as brief as possible, simply because I don't want to see anymore of my fish die. I know it looks like a lot, but I spaced everything out for easier viewing and added headings for quick info finding. I really need some help here. My Orange Von Rio Flame Tetras have slowly been dying off one by one. I used to have five, then one died from Popeye. (I treated, but unfortunately it didn't work.) However, he was replaced (with a heavy heart) and then I had five again, until recently another one died.

Symptoms
It started when one of them kept swimming strangly, completely on his side. He was not having trouble with buoyancy, or floating at the top or bottom of the tank. He couldn't hold himself upright. He tried to swim upright, but then leans to one side until he is flat like a pancake, then repeats with the other side. He eventually died. Now, to my horror, I found another out of the now four Von Rios doing the same. He started out as just leaning, but no trouble floating. However, within an hour of noticing the poor fish, I now have to watch in great sadness as this fish almost floats upside down at times.

Water Parameters: Ammonia 0, Nitrite 0, Nitrate 15, pH 7.6 (All tests taken with the API Master Freshwater Liquid Tube Kit)
Similar to the Popeye case, I never found the cause because water quality is usually never an issue with my tank. I try never to let the parameters stray from healthy ranges. Ever.

Additional Info
I am extremely concerned with helping this fish recover. What concerns me the most, is that Swim Bladder is not contagious, so the fact that multiple fish keep getting means that there is a cause, but I can't seem to ID it! I will now answer all the questions that I haven't already that are on one of the stickys "Read this before posting about sick fish"

1. The tank is 20 US gallons, established August of 2010.

2. I am using an AquaClear rated for 20-30 gallons. I know, not a ton of filteration, but my water parameters are never a problem. Also, if oxygen is a problem, the filter can have a pretty high flow, but I am definitely open to buying a new one if it will save my fish...

3. For my fish, please see "My Tanks".

4. Under normal circumstances, I do one PWC a week, and usually change about 40% of the water. Is that a lot? I just always felt that clean water is better water, and I am careful to add it slowly. The week that I noticed the first Von Rio swimming on his side, the one who has already passed, I did one 40% PWC, and two 2 gallon PWCs for lack of a treatment. (No ID..)

5. As mentioned above, after the Von Rio had passed from Popeye, I added a new one. There is no way to tell whether the new one is the one that died previously, is the sick one now, or is healthy, as they all look the same. When acclimating, I float the bag in the tank for 20-40 minutes, depending on fish hardiness, and add a little tank water every 5 minutes. I do this rather precisely, with timers going off every 5 minutes.

6.~Have you added anything new to the tank--decor, new dechlorinator, new substrate, etc.? ----> No.

7.~What kind of food have you been feeding your fish, have you changed their diet recently? ----> I used to feed them TetraMin Tropical Flakes, but after running out I bought some Aqueon Tropical Flakes. Oh, and on occasion I give them thawed frozen brine shrimp, and rarely some freeze dried bloodworms. (The brands of these have not been switched.) I don't remember when exactly I switched flake brands, but I know it was after the first Von Rio died of Popeye, then perhaps before or after the second dying. If it makes any difference, I will right away go out and buy those old flakes...

Please, Please, Pleeeeeasse help me identify this illness before it wipes out all of my beautiful Von Rios!! (And possibly other fish, too!) I am willing to do anything within reason that will help my fish. Unfortunately, QT/Hospital Tank is not an option. I know that many in the hobby always do so, but there is not way that I am aloud to have a spare tank up and running in addition to this one..

Thank you.

P.S I heard a good idea is to not feed for a couple days, then try a shelled pea. Also, food expanding in their stomach can be a cause... but really how do I buy food that doesn't do that??? Help in this process is really appreciated. I need a lot of help here! Also, since swim bladder is not contagious, why do multiple fish keep getting it? There has to be something causing it. I am getting very frustrated will all these sick fish, it's awful when you don't appear to be doing anything wrong, and can't ID the cause of an illness.
 
What concerns me the most, is that Swim Bladder is not contagious, ...

I don't know that much about tropical fish, but I have some general comments to get you started. I will also change your title to attract better attention.

1. Swim bladder disorder may be due to a bacterial infection - so can certainly be contagious. Constipation or gas in the gut may mimic swimbladder disorder ... this is the condition that may be helped by peas & is not contagious.
2. Far as gut problem goes, feeding sinking food will help, or soak the food until it sinks. It is not so much food expanding in the stomach that is the problem, rather air in the food (or air gulped in with the floating food) that cause the bloating.
3. Make sure your food is still good. Check the date & smell it for 'Off" odors. Fermenting food will give the same symptoms.
4. You don't have to have a QT running all the time. For a hospital setup, a clean tub with a filter & heater will do. Fill the filter with media from your existing tank & you will have a cycled setup at a moment's notice. <A neat trick is to use a HOB with 2 filter pads in your display. Pull one of the pads for your QT when you need it.>
 
Well, the first thing to do is STOP REPLACING FISH! Once you get all this sorted out, slowly add more. Not to be rude or harsh, just for the sake of the fish.
 
Thank you so much for the replies.

My comments below in blue.
I don't know that much about tropical fish, but I have some general comments to get you started. I will also change your title to attract better attention.

1. Swim bladder disorder may be due to a bacterial infection - so can certainly be contagious. Constipation or gas in the gut may mimic swimbladder disorder ... this is the condition that may be helped by peas & is not contagious.
Ok, so it can be. I had previously read on another site while Googling that it is not, but of course it could easily have been incorrect. Thank you for clarifying./COLOR]

2. Far as gut problem goes, feeding sinking food will help, or soak the food until it sinks. It is not so much food expanding in the stomach that is the problem, rather air in the food (or air gulped in with the floating food) that cause the bloating.
Ok.. should I be soaking this food every single time now for all my fish... or just for this fish until it gets better? Is there anyway that I can prevent swim bladder from coming back?

3. Make sure your food is still good. Check the date & smell it for 'Off" odors. Fermenting food will give the same symptoms.
The food is new. Remember, I replaced my old food after running out with new food.

4. You don't have to have a QT running all the time. For a hospital setup, a clean tub with a filter & heater will do. Fill the filter with media from your existing tank & you will have a cycled setup at a moment's notice. <A neat trick is to use a HOB with 2 filter pads in your display. Pull one of the pads for your QT when you need it.>
Yeah, I see what you mean. I suppose there's no harm in asking, but I really don't have room to set it up when needed anyway. My parents have pretty much made it clear in the past that there is no way I'm getting more fish tanks, but hey I suppose I could always talk to them.



Well, the first thing to do is STOP REPLACING FISH! Once you get all this sorted out, slowly add more. Not to be rude or harsh, just for the sake of the fish.
Not harsh at all. I am always open to advice, and afterall, I did post this thread to get help, which means that someone needs to tell me what I am doing wrong. So actually, thanks for the heads up. I only added a new Tetra once, when that one died of Popeye, to boost the school back up. However, if it's better to stop introducing new fish without a QT until I sort this problem out, that's fine with me.

Thank you both for responding. Replies are very appreciated. At this point, should I put the fish in the breeder trap? It's not a QT... but at least I could target feed peas better. This is what I have: Lee's Multi-Purpose 3-Way Breeders at PETCO You can take out the divider and the grate to make it more roomy.
 
Your welcome, but I wouldn't. The stress of netting, and moving your fish to another tank would be counterproductive. It makes them more susceptible to disease and could make things worse, especially since the problem isn't contagious. I would definitely try the shelled peas, and go back to the old food when the behavior stops. And a quarantine is always a good idea. I give my fish at least a month before I put them in my show tank. Better safe then sorry!
 
Thanks, but if I don't put him in the breeder trap, how in the world will I get the sick fish to eat a pea in a community tank with 16 other fish? I know it's not harmful for the others to get one, but because of his difficultly swimming around, the poor guy won't get a chance.

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Do you have a tank divider? You could separate the other fish from him and try to only feed him. You could move him if you have to. But it could be more costly then it's worth.
 
You could try spot feeding with a turkey baster or a straw.
 
Thanks guys for the suggestions. I don't have a divider, but I will try the bastor, great idea!
Should I be feeding the tank the flakes right now, just peas, or nothing for a day or so?

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I would leave him for a day or so. Just to make sure he's hungry. Then try the peas and the turkey bastor. But if you're that worried, go ahead and try it!
 
Ok.. I'm pretty worried, so I am gonna go ahead and target feed a pea. Should I feed the others flakes?

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I'd go with shelled peas for all. If it really is bad food, you'd be better off feeding them all peas for a few days until you can switch em back.
 
Okay, thanks. Additional advice is definitely welcome. I'll post an update when necessary.
 
De-shell the pea, blanch it, and cut it up into little bite size pieces for the best chance of he/she eating it.
 
Update!

Hey guys,
Just before my dinner, and right after the weekly water change, I fed my fish some peas.

I figured it was a good time to do so, because they looked hungry and it was time for their feeding, anyway. I defrosted 3 peas and shelled them. Unfortunately, I did this before reading Meegosh's most recent post, so I didn't cut them up into little pieces. I basically just spilt them in half in my attempt to shell them.

I was skeptical, and didn't think that they would go for it, as I figured it would be unrecognizable as food. However, I should have known better that my fish will attack anything that drops into the tank at feeding time. :lol:
I put three peas in there so that the sick one gets a good chance of getting some for himself. If he appears to be having trouble, I'll step in with a turkey bastor.

So, everyone was pretty much busy trying to eat the peas (including the sick one!) when I left them for my own dinner. After posting this, I'll go check down and see how things are going. If they don't appear to eat it, I'll cut it into smaller pieces.

So, is the pea what's going to cure the swim bladder? What else can I do?

Thank you all so very much.
P.S. Tomorrow: What's my next step? More peas? Flakes? Nothing?

EDIT: Okay well... things not going so well anymore. I was excited that the fish were interested in the peas, but the moment's over. The sick Rio only grabbed a small bite, but cannot physically eat properly. His body won't let him properly eat food off the substrate, it keeps either thrashing to the side or pulling him up. His condition is deteriorating, I found him thrashing about very wildly. He was spazzing pretty badly, so I don't think he can eat anything more..

This is really disappointing news, because I really want to save this Rio, but things are not looking so great right now. Hopefully tomorrow will be a better day. I've turned the lights off for now, hoping I could calm things down a bit.
 
Nows a good time to set up the qt tank. Once he's in there try feeding him again. Don't put any substrate in it to make life easier for him, hope you can save him!
 
Update ~ I think there is a dark raincloud constantly hanging over my tank.

Okay well here is an update. After some more research, I've discovered that Swim Bladder is incurable. That was absolutely devastating news, to basically find out that I can keep this fish OK by feeding peas and such, but he will never recover and will always be sick.

I took that pretty badly, and wasn't able to go into the basement anymore. I didn't want to see this fish, knowing I was just watching the delayed death of the Rio. This news did not settle at all well with me, so every morning so far I've been making my dad go into the basement and feed my fish for me. Then I realized that I would need to handle this maturely, simply because sooner or later I will need to do a water change. Well, today was that day and I forced myself down there after I made my dad check for dead fish.

The thing that is bothering me the most is the fact that I cannot find a cause. I tested my water today, and was actually hoping that the parameters would be a little bit off. That's because when I find out that they are perfect, (Ammonia 0, Nitrite 0, Nitrate 10-20) I get frustrated because there is no reason that my fish should be getting sick. I can't find a specific problem with my tank, and I'm always doing everything to my knowledge in order to keep a healthy tank, but no matter what I do I am not able to prevent sick fish. I understand that sometimes these things happen, but sick fish is not a seldom occurrence in my fish tanks, regardless of the water quality.

The sick Von Rio is still alive, and not thrashing anymore. I think he calmed down after I turned out the lights, but yeah he's still listing. (Turning on one side)

:cry:
 
Hey, I'm so sorry. I think the best thing to do, for both you and your little guy, is just to put him out of his misery. You can get your dad to do it, but it's better for you and the fish if you get it over with. I'm so sorry for your loss and may he rest in peace.
 
Good news and bad news:

I'm sorry Homedog, but I just could NOT let go of my Rio. I told myself that if things got worse I would have to euthanize... But just incase I decided to wait things out a bit.

Good thing I did, because his condition seems to have improved slightly. He is no longer thrashing around violently, nor flipping upside down!!!! :D :D This is an awesome thing, but I'm trying not to get my hopes up too much incase he still doesn't make it. I think he is in more control of his swimming now. Not perfectly straight, but there is surely improvement.

At first, when I forced myself down there to give everyone some Brine Shrimp, I scoped the tank for dead fish and then noticed the improvements on the Rio. Because of this, I was actually able to sit and watch the fish, not quickly leave the room so I wouldn't have to see the fish so miserable. I forgot how much I enjoy watching them, the funny Cories, the crazy-never-stopping Guppies, the chill Neons... I hadn't watched my little community full of interest in a while and I am happy that I was able to today.

However, as mentioned earlier, this fish does not have a clean bill of health just yet. He still has a while to go, and there is always the possibility of death at this stage. I am no longer convinced that he has swim bladder. I am thinking it's some internal parasite because he has red spots on his stomach, almost like bullet holes but they are just markings, not wounds... This is what worries me the most...

This isn't the first time my tank has dealt with internal parasites. I lost a Cory a while back when I came home and saw him gasping for air, on his back, with a sunken/ caved in stomach.

Too bad that I still can't find any causes. Feel free to chime in at any time if you have any clue. What else but water quality causes illnesses/diseases/parasites in a tank? (Besides adding new fish)

Thanks for reading and thanks for the replies.

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Bad food. How long have you had your food and what type is it? Im glad your little guy is improving!
 
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