Finrot and Unusual Behavior

[akmandlarge]

and, this is what you were talking about, right?
Freshwater Master Test Kit - API

 

[jsoong]

Yes, that is the kit.

If the tank had never been cycled (or been "uncycled" due to antibiotics), you would see an ammonia followed by a nitrite spike. The height of the spike depends on your bio-load, water change & how much of a biofilter you have. The goal is to manage the spikes so it is not stressful to the fish (NH3 less than 0.5, NO2 less than 0.25). Once the tank passed the spike phases, it should maintain zero NH3 & NO2, but slowly rising NO3. (And you want NO3 under 10 or 20).

In the first pic., the fish had ich & a secondary bacterial infection. The others don't look too bad. Minor raggedness at the edges of the fins is relatively mild as far as finrot goes. It normally would progress till only the rays are left, then the rays starts to go. In the first pic, it looked like some of the rays are eaten away before all the "inter-ray" tissue. I guess this might be the effect of the ich. Once part of the ray is gone, it will not grow back, so the fin will only grow to what is left of the ray. I suspect that the fish will always have a bit of an uneven fin (and shortened tail) due to the ray damage. As long as the edges are not shredded, it would be considered normal.

At this stage, I think if you can eliminate what is stressing the fish, you can heal that minor shredding without going to anti-biotics.

 

[akmandlarge]

My new test kit should be here in the mail within the week or so, but so far the water levels are generally the same. I just did a pwc right now so im going to wait a bit to test it so that it can settle.

in my fish's left eyeball, towards the bottom, there is a bit of a red ring. it looks bloody, but i know it's more of inflammation. does this have anything to do with being stressed out? he is still sitting at the bottom of the tank very often, but his fins are getting better.

 

[akmandlarge]

His fins have completely grown back (YAY!) but he is still stressed out and sitting at the bottom of the tank all the time. I got a liquid test kit (per your advice) and here are my current levels:

pH: 7.4-7.6 Ammonia: <.1 NO2: 0 NO3: 5 (finally going up!)

I ordered a thermometer for my tank on the first of the month and it hasnt arrived yet, but when it does I will be able to tell you the temperature. Nothing else has changed since my past problems, so I'm assuming the temperature is still around 75-80. I have been doing PWC's once a week and everything else seems to be fine, but for some reason he still sits in the corner 75% of the day and it is sad to look at. What do you think is the problem, now that I have the water situation under control?

 

[akmandlarge]

sorry, forgot this!

GH: 180 KH: 80

 

[dkpate]

Make sure you keep doing pwc's until that ammonia goes away! i would assume that the high ammonia is why he is lethargic.
Make sure you are shaking those #2 ammonia and NO3 bottles too, if you don't you can get false readings.
Good luck with your little fishy!

 

[jsoong]

It seems you finally got the tank parameters under control.

Lethargy is a bit of a difficult one to diagnose, since just about everything cause lethargy.

Questions first:
1. Any other signs - spots, bumps, etc.
2. Is he eating? Is he growing? Seen any poop?
3. What are you feeding him?
4. Can you sneak a look at the inside of the gill ... (Look at the fish when he is facing away from you.) - is it nice & pink, brown or pale?

Lethargy may be from poor water .... even if all your measured parameters are under control, there may be other stuff in there that is causing problems. Try doing a 50% pwc empirically. If the fish is more active with fresh water, that would be indicative of water problem.

Sometimes fish that went through cycling will have permanent organ damage. Sometimes time will heal thing.

Internal (or gill) parasites may cause lethargy. A course of Prazi (eg Jungle anti-parasite food) may be contemplated.

A single fish may simple be lonely. Sometimes my fish is sitting in a corner in QT, but is totally active when in the main tank with other tankmates. You might consider adding some plants or decor for some stimulation. Or play with the fish more often ...

 

[akmandlarge]

1. No other spots/bumps/etc., just a little of the "dusty" look that black moors sometimes have
2. He is eating Top Fin Goldfish Floating Variety Pellets (about 4 a day) and he eats them rapidly. Some days I put a bit of Seaweed Salad Green Marine Algae and he loves eating that too. I just don't like to put it in that often because it makes the tank dirty. He seems to be growing at a normal rate, he has grown at least a centimeter longer in the past 6 months. He is also pooping regularly.
4. His gills do look nice and pink, no doubt about that.

He doesn't seem any more active immediately following a water change than he does any other day. He is usually up and swimming around by the time I wake up, but then for the remainder of the day until about 10 pm he just sits in the corner. I don't know what he does when I am asleep.

I have debated getting him a "friend" for a long time, I am just concerned about putting 2 fish in a 10-gallon tank. I can't buy a bigger tank at this time (or anytime in the next 3 years) so I don't want them to outgrow it. Also, how exactly do you "play" with a fish?

 

[dkpate]

To play with my fish:
My bettas: put a hand mirror up to the tank so they think they have a buddy (not sure if that would be the case with the goldies)
My BGK: I just put my finger in the water and he likes to swirl around it and show off.
My Drawf Gourami: I make him follow my finger along the glass and also if I hole my finger about a 1/2 inch above the surface, he will shoot water at it lol

I don't know about the rest of the stuff, hopefully JSoong will be back on sometime, he knows A LOT about goldies.

Good Luck!

 

[jsoong]

The "dusty" look worries me a bit. This could be cloudy slime coat (which shows up more in a black fish), which might indicate a surface parasite/irritation. Sometimes costia or columnaris can cause a dry looking patch of slime coat.

This fish is actually not growing much ... a 1" baby should double in size in 6 months. Granted, he had went through a lot so growth is bound to be slowed.

2 other thoughts - this may be stupid, but going to cover all the bases ... I assume you have a light over the tank. Goldfish in the dark will not be too active. I can't remember if you added salt to the tank. If you continue to add salt with pwc but not take into account evaporation, you might run into salt creep. High level of salt tend to sedate goldfish. <Although you need 0.5% +>

A normal goldfish should be "booking" - ie nosing around in the gravel looking for food almost constantly. Any fish that is just sitting at the bottom is worrisome.

As to playing with your fish - A mirror may be worth a try - moors have lousy eyesight, so might not work. I hand feed my fish on occasion (they can't resist shrimps), and now they will come & investigate & nibble on my hand whenever I put it in the tank. They will also follow my hand around the glass. Of course, they all come to their feeding spot at the surface whenever anyone comes near the tank. For start, you might want to try feeding more often (3-4x spread out over the day). That should at least create more excitement during the day. Once the fish associates you with food, you can try hand feeding. <Some go as far as petting their fish .... do it gently & with clean hands. This can be useful, as you can tell a lot by how the slime coat feels. But you prob should only try this after the fish will eat out of your hand.>

For now, I think you can give it a bit of time. You just got the tank cycled, and it might be a little while before the fish settles in. However, I would watch that dustiness closely. If it appears to be spreading or getting more cloudy, I would be tempted to try a course of anti-parasitic food. <Prazi is consider very safe for goldies, and some experts advocate treating ALL new fish - even frys - with a course of Prazi during QT.... since internal parasites are very common in commercially raised goldfish.>

 

[akmandlarge]

If my pellets are about 2 mm in diameter (very small little balls) how many can I get away with giving him per day? I agree that feeding him more often might make him more excited... i used to feed him a lot when he was in a little 1 gal bowl and he was always so active.

Yes, I have a light over him, but interestingly enough, if he is sitting at the bottom and then I turn the light off, he gets up and starts swimming. Not always, but usually.

I will stop adding salt for now, to see if that changes anything. I am going out of town by car this weekend and no one can take care of him in his tank, so I am transporting him in a 2 gallon hospital tank for the weekend :-/ I hope this doesn't stress him out too much. I am going to take the water straight from the tank to he doesn't have to adjust at all.

Do you think I should get this Prazi and just try it? He is really no too dusty looking at all, he just doesn't look completely 100% black, he maybe looks like 97%. I don't know if that makes any sense at all, but I don't think I could show it in a picture.

 

[jsoong]

2mm are baby pellets, you should be able to feed more than just 4 ... General rule of thumb is to feed one mouthful at one sitting & knowing the size of a goldies's mouth that would be quite a few pellets! For starts, I think you can double that amount per feed, twice a day. As long as he eats everything in a couple minutes, you can keep upping the amount as he grows.

It would be a bit stressful to transport a fish, but there are ways to minimize it. Rather than transporting in an open tank, I would suggest using a cooler <with lid loose> & a large rubbermaid tub. <Cooler if your temp is cold ... but in California, it is prob still rather warm?> Reason is that you would have a lid so the water won't splash during your trip. <Drill holes in rubbermaid lid for air, water that splash out of the holes stay in the cooler so your car won't be wet ...>. Get a battery operated airstone (or an inverter & run your airpump) & you would be set for the car trip. You might want to bring your filter (keep it wet) & run it when you get to your destination, so your fish won't have to face another cycle in the temp setup. If you get a 5 or 10 gal tub, you can use that as a future large QT. <I have a 30 gal tub that I store all my fish stuff in & doubles as my QT, transport.>

If the car trip is going to be quite long, you might want to add a dose of Prime (or other ammonia absorbing dechlor) at the start & do a large pwc at the end to remove any ammonia that accumulated. <You would have to match tank water parameters. If the water at the destination is very different, you would want to add your new water slowly (like over 1/2 hrs) & limit the pwc to maybe 25% or less.>

Also, don't forget to feed your main tank with a pinch of fishfood before you go. Without fish, the biofilter will start to die back & you might face the cycle (again!) when you get back. The bit of fishfood will help keep your tank bacteria alive.

The Praziquantel is a bit of a judgement call. Some moors are "velvet" & they have non-shinny scales, so might give you the dull look. If the fish had always looked like that, I would leave it be. But a change in the fish from shinny to dull is worrisome. <Also, goldies will lose their black color as they get older, so make sure this is not a color change, but a change is the shininess .... I hope this is not too confusing! > I think with the move, etc. coming up, you might just want to hold off until the dust settles, unless the fish develops an obvious sign of being sick.