First 'skuffle' with Ick

[gboutwel]

Hello,

We have a 3 Weeks old 10 Gallon Fresh water Tank with the following inhabitants:

2 Fantail Goldfish
5 Neon Tetra
6 Lemon Tetra
2 Plecos
5 Snails

We had an 'outbreak' of Ich. The fish had been acting 'funny' (lethargic, loss of appetite, going to the surface for air - even the plecos, etc) for a day or two. We tried filter change & partial water change, then this AM we looked and there where white spots on most the fish.

We have read the article on Ich and treating it, etc.

We have purchased an suitable Ich medication (one for scaleless fish because of the plecos), removed the carbon from our filter, and are trying to raise the temperature in the tank.

The concern we have is the temperature and what to raise it to. We have documentation on all the fish and the documentation says the following about temperature:

Fantail Goldfish - 64F - 75F
Neon & Lemon Tetra - 72F - 82F
Plecos - Same as Tetras

What's the highest temperature we could/should go to fight the Ich but not overly stress the fish to the point of killing them?

 

[jsoong]

I think your limiting factor will be your fantails. The max. you can push goldies to is around 80 (although some claim to be able to push to mid 80's). At any rate, I don't think goldies will tolerate the 88F you need to kill ich with temp alone. If you are just trying to speed up the ich cycle then high 70's should be fine.

If you do increase the temp, you'll need to increase areation greatly, as less O2 can dissolve into warmer water, and the ich might also infect the gills, decreasing the fish's ability to extract O2. (That's one reason they are coming up for air).

BTW - your tank is rather crowded (the 2 fantails alone are consider overstocking in a 10 gal), so this might be creating stress & bringing on ich.

Another thing to think about, some ich meds will kill off inverts (& plants), so you might have to remove the snails.

My experience is only with goldies, so someone else might need to chime in regarding the rest of your stock.

HTH

 

[sweetsuvvyb]

Just an FYI...goldfishinfo.com recommends a warmer temp (btw 74 and 78 degrees F) for ornamental goldfish. I have a fantail and an oranda, and they are much happier in warmer temps.

I don't know if that means they can typically survive in higher temps (although mine have).

One thing to keep in mind...if you're increasing temperature, you are actually increasing the rate of reproduction of the ich, unless you get your tank up above that threshold temperature. A lot of people use high temps alone to treat ich...but if you're using an ich med, there is really no need to increase the temperature. Just remember you need to keep using the med until a couple days after you see any visible signs of ich.

You might also want to look into using salt to treat ich. Allivymar has written an excellent article on ich, which can be found in the "Articles" section of this site.

good luck!

 

[gboutwel]

Yeah. We know it's over stocked. We have purchased an 29 Gallon tank and are trying a fishless cycle to get it ready. When it's ready we'll put the Tetras, and Plecos in it and leave the Goldfish in the 10 Gallon tank.

We lost one of the Neon Tetras today. That bring the count down to 4 (we started with 6). My family is getting a little discouraged. We are trying so hard to do it right and keep them alive but it just seems like we aren't doing too good.

 

[Allivymar]

Hiya gboutwel and welcome to Aquariumadvice.

You say you are trying hard to do things right. There are some things you'll need to do to be able to succeed.

First you'll need to get your water parameters (ammonia/nitrite/nitrate/pH). If you have the levels, share them with us. Do know that any level of ammonia and/or nitrite will stress the fish and affect their immune system. Unless you've used a product called Bio-Spira, I'd say your tank is cycling (do read this if you haven't researched the nitrogen cycle yet; its the basis for a healthy tank: http://faq.thekrib.com/begin-cycling.html ).

Secondly, as others have mentioned, your tank is VERY overstocked, which is definitely contributing to the probs. Both in terms of ammonia production as well as compatibility and space. Goldfish need at least 10g each. If you have common plecs, they grow to be about 2 feet long and they grow quickly. They also require more algae when they are small; I'm guessing there is very little algae in the tank - do be sure to feed them algae wafers if you aren't already or they will starve. Also, 2 are too many for anything under 100 gallons IMHO. A 29g and a 10g will still not resolve the overstocking issue. I would suggest returning some of the fish, or consider buying a much larger tank.

A 10g tank is an incredibly small tank believe it or not. Do remember its a closed system; the smaller the system the more magnified the problems.

I'm guessing there was little research done prior to your purchases, and the lfs was of no help/poor information. Do go to the library and grab some fish books, and do some online research on the fish you have and the fish you want. It will definitely save heartache in the future.

With research and lots of questions, I think you can have a very successful aquarium experience. And trust me I speak from personal experience. I started with 2 angelfish in a 8g hex tank, and added a pleco 2 months later. Once you have a better understanding of fish and their needs, you'll understand what a poor decision that was on my part LOL Oi. Then again, had I done MY research, I wouldn't have 4 running tanks, including a 55g to house the angels and the plec *grin* I kept buying more tanks to accomodate the fish. No complaints tho; I love em

 

[gboutwel]

First you'll need to get your water parameters (ammonia/nitrite/nitrate/pH). If you have the levels, share them with us.

Ok, We've been trying to track those effectively since we lost the first of our neon tetras.

Here's the last 5 reading from our test strips (they have Chlorine/Nitrite/HARDNESS/pH):

Test #, Day (am/pm)
5, Mon 10/6 0/0.1/120/8.0
6, Wed 10/8 0/0.1/120/8.2
7, Fri 10/10 0/0.0/120/8.4
8, Sat 10/11 am 0/0.1/120/8.0
9. Sat 10/11 pm 0/0.0/120/7.6

We are about out of those and wasn't able to find an 'complete' test strip, so we have a 'mix of strips' that will include all the above and add ammonia & nitrate. The last few tests have been done by my spouse and they interpreted the results a little different than I did. I'd say that we have never completely had a 0 nitrite level.

We've been doing 2-5 gallon partial water changes every couple of days.

We live in an pretty rural community, where the closest 'lfs' is more like 1.5 hrs drive (same with a Walmart). And our local vet doesn't stock anything for fish. So we are fighting the issues of supplies being hard to get.

Do know that any level of ammonia and/or nitrite will stress the fish and affect their immune system. Unless you've used a product called Bio-Spira, I'd say your tank is cycling (do read this if you haven't researched the nitrogen cycle yet; its the basis for a healthy tank: http://faq.thekrib.com/begin-cycling.html ).

We've read all the Freshwater & General FAQs, Articles, and are doing our best to apply them. We are having trouble finding 'raw' seafood/fish of any kind. Will canned shrimp work?

Secondly, as others have mentioned, your tank is VERY overstocked, which is definitely contributing to the probs. Both in terms of ammonia production as well as compatibility and space.

Yes. We had no idea where to start and made the common mistake of trusting the 'rfs' (remote fish store) sales person. Who assured us that Goldfish and Neon Tetras & a Pleco where all fine in a 10G tank! We lost the Pleco and replaced it with (another bad rfs's advice) 2 (smaller) Plecos & 6 Lemon Tetras. Again, assured that this wouldn't be a problem.

If you have common plecs, they grow to be about 2 feet long and they grow quickly. They also require more algae when they are small; I'm guessing there is very little algae in the tank - do be sure to feed them algae wafers if you aren't already or they will starve.

Well.. The Plecos are a concern for us considering we lost one already, and one of them is concerning us. He has Ich bad, looks like one of his tail fins is 'broke' and his tail is 'bent'. We don't know how that happened if it was other fish, Ich, or what?

How often and how much should we be feeding them algae wafers? We've been putting in 1 wafer per Pleco daily (basically same time we feed the other fish). Keeping mind we have Snails too. We where told those eat the Algae wafers too.

online research on the fish you have and the fish you want. It will definitely save heartache in the future.

Online research is the best bet I think. But there again I don't know where to start. I did an Google search on all our fish and I get mind goggling results, but most of them have less information that I've already told you.

No complaints tho; I love em

We are really enjoying our fish too. That's why we are trying so hard to get it right after messing up so badly.

Thanks for your time. I feel better just having a place like aquarium advice to come to.

 

[Allivymar]

Okey dokey; first and foremost buy tests the next time you get to a semi-lfs (heh I know what you mean; the closest good one to me is a 45 min drive...and I have one within walking distance but its gross). Tomorrow might be a nice day for a shopping trip *hint hint* Buy the liquid/vial ones; they are much more accurate then the strips (I use the Aquarium Pharmaceuticals brand). Get ammonia, nitrite, nitrate and pH.

As for raw seafood, feh. Don't worry about it. None of your fish need it. It'll make a nice treat (maybe a night when you folks have shrimp for dinner *grin*) but isn't necessary.

Scaleless fish are much more susceptible to ich then scaleless, so its no surprise thats he's worse off. The scales protect the fish somewhat, although obviously not completely. If you haven't read the article I wrote about ich, go take a peek; its in the article section here. You'll see that ich has 3 stages and only one is susceptible to meds. And its not the stage you see.

I would suggest daily water changes, of at least 20-30%. It will reduce the levels of ammonia that are most likely in your tank, and will also pull some of the ich parasites. Do make sure to adjust the levels of meds if its not a type that requires daily addition (those lose potency after a day anyway), and do the changes prior to adding the meds. Clean fresh treated water thats the same temp as the tank water will help immensely.

Daily algae wafers are probably not necessary yet (I'm guessing your guys are a coupla inches long). I was just afraid they had no access to algae at all. I'd reduce feedings to every other day atm for all the fish. You won't starve the fish and it will reduce levels of waste which in turn will help keep those levels of ammonia down.

*sigh* There are some amazing lfs out there. Shame they are so few and far between. Requires us aquariast enthusiasts to do our own research and get our own info. Prob is, there is SO much info out there, half of it conflicting. Is why these forums are so necessary. It doesn't mean forums have all the answers, but its a great place to get opinions and other's experiences, so one can make an at least semi-informed decision *grin* So keep the questions coming!

 

[jsoong]

Agrees with everything Allivymar said. She's da Guru!

I have one thing to add: Since you already have the 29 gal, why don't you use that now & don't bother with the fishless cycling. Your fish are prob really stressed out and will be much better off in a bigger tank. I think the stress of cycling the 29 gal (esp if you keep on top of the parameter) is less than living in overcrowded conditions.

Without ammonia test, prob can't tell for sure if the 10 gal had cycled. If it hadn't, you've lost nothing in moving the fish to bigger quarters. If the 10 gal had cycled, you can use the gravel/decorations, & filter from the 10 gal to jump start the 29 gal (there's an article & quite a few threads here on moving fish) and you won't have as much prob with NH3 or NO2 spikes.

PS - big sigh on the "rfs", but that's not unusal even in big city. We are in a city of 1 million and it is tough to find a good lfs ...

 

[gboutwel]

As for raw seafood, feh. Don't worry about it. None of your fish need it. It'll make a nice treat (maybe a night when you folks have shrimp for dinner *grin*) but isn't necessary.

We where referring to using the shrimp in a fishless cycle for the brand new 29G Tank.

I would suggest daily water changes, of at least 20-30%. It will reduce the levels of ammonia that are most likely in your tank, and will also pull some of the ich parasites. Do make sure to adjust the levels of meds if its not a type that requires daily addition (those lose potency after a day anyway), and do the changes prior to adding the meds. Clean fresh treated water thats the same temp as the tank water will help immensely.

The meds we have call for an 25% water change before putting in a new dose. And is only effective for 24hrs. So we've been doing daily water changes and putting the Meds in after those are complete. The visible signs of Ich on all the fish is greatly decreased after only a couple of days. We intend to keep it up and watch them for at least 3 days until the last visible signs of Ich are gone.

Daily algae wafers are probably not necessary yet (I'm guessing your guys are a coupla inches long). I was just afraid they had no access to algae at all. I'd reduce feedings to every other day atm for all the fish. You won't starve the fish and it will reduce levels of waste which in turn will help keep those levels of ammonia down.

We'll reduce feedings. I had considered that, but didn't want to weaken the fish during this time that they are having to fight Ich.

We've increased ariation in the tank (lowered water a touch, and raised the fitler so that is 'splashes' more as it hits the water) to help with breathing/Oxygen issues.

 

[gboutwel]

I have one thing to add: Since you already have the 29 gal, why don't you use that now & don't bother with the fishless cycling. Your fish are prob really stressed out and will be much better off in a bigger tank. I think the stress of cycling the 29 gal (esp if you keep on top of the parameter) is less than living in overcrowded conditions.

We had considered that. But wanted to try and treat the Ich and not create more things than we can deal with by putting Ich & fish in a new tank.

 

[jsoong]

Regarding raw shrimp & fishless cycling - I read that article too, but really all you need is some source of ammonia - it can come from decaying plant or animal matter, or just pure ammonia (as in household cleaning - just make sure there is no additive, just ammonia).

You might try this article - which give the rational of fishless cycling, plus recipe for adding ammonia, etc.

http://www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/fishless_cycling.php

Note that you'll need 7-14 days for the fishless cycle, so you may want to start that now so the tank will be ready when your fish is ich free.

 

[gboutwel]

Tonights Ammonia/Chlorine/Nitrite/Hardness/pH readings:

10, Sun 10/12 6.0/0/0.0/120/7.4


We followed that up with an immediate 3G water change (It was time to put in Ich Meds), etc. Oh and I did the test tonight. I would say that the 0 Nitrite level is right on (and probably the first time I've seen it be so close to 0).

The Good News

Ich meds seem to be helping. Large Reduction of Ich, and even our Pleco that was a concern is starting to do better.

The Bad News

6.0 ppm on Ammonia. The cause is of course unknown but most likely the VERY over-stocked issue. Could be the Ich meds getting to our Ammonia/Nitrite/Nitrate colonies or a combination of the above. Will continue to monitor Ammonia levels at least daily until we have a feel for a 'pattern'. Will probably, also, test Ammonia later tonight (in a few hours) to see if they water change helped bring it down or not.

What other things (if any) can I do to help with the high levels of Ammonia?

Thanks everyone for you help to this point. I'm off to search the forums and articles on moving fish to prepare for when we get to the point of transferring fish from the 10 gal to the 29 gal.

 

[jsoong]

When you have high ammonia & no nitrite or nitrate, this means your tank has not cycled. Zero nitrite is not good news when you are cycling. At 3 weeks you should be seeing some nitrite, indicating convertion of NH3.

At this stage I would suggest moving everyone over to the 29 gal. You'll have much more stable water parameters & the fish will be much better at fighting off the ich. I know you will be moving the ich into the 29 gal as well, but you have to treat the ich for the next week or so anyway, either in the 10 gal or the 29 gal. So I say, you have lost nothing in moving the fish.

Alli & other experts - what say you... agree or disagree

 

[gboutwel]

I'm starting to think we really don't have a choice.

I did an check on the ammonia level this AM before going to work. 6.0 ppm, it's like changing the water had not effect.

My spouse just reported to me that we lost 2 more neon tetras. I'm starting to think we have not choice but to put the fish in the 29 gal tank and take our chances, it's gotta be better than watching them slowing drop one by one.

 

[sweetsuvvyb]

Just an FYI...if you are using ich meds...it would be pretty much impossible to cycle a tank, as most meds have a negative effect on your nitrifying bacteria.

You'll have to wait till you've completed treating for ich to except any bacteria to form in the tank, nomatter the size. Even if your 29 gall was completely cycled...you'd have to re-cycle it again once the ich treatment is done.

If you have any of the products that claim to convert ammonia to a non-toxic form (ie, ammo-lock, amquel)...I would actually recommend using them (which i NEVER do!), until you can get your critters into the 29 gall. Keep in mind, when you use these products, your ammonia tests will still register the "converted" ammonia, and you shouldn't continue to use them once you are going to cycle your tank...because if you're removing all the ammonia...then the bacteria don't have anything to "eat". If you don't have any of this stuff...just keep up with the water changes (how much are you changing?)

Also...what type of filter are you running? Make sure there's no carbon in there when you're medicating!

 

[gboutwel]

Just an FYI...if you are using ich meds...it would be pretty much impossible to cycle a tank, as most meds have a negative effect on your nitrifying bacteria.

Yeah I knew it would have an effect on the bacteria, I just couldn't remember which bacteria it would have an effect on. Thanks.

You'll have to wait till you've completed treating for ich to except any bacteria to form in the tank, nomatter the size. Even if your 29 gall was completely cycled...you'd have to re-cycle it again once the ich treatment is done.

That's what I'be been trying to do. I now have conflictying advice. You saying don't put them in the 29 gal and jsoong saying they would be better off in the 29 gal tank even with the Ich. I realized it's a judgement call, I'd really like a couple more people to weigh in about this if possible.

If you have any of the products that claim to convert ammonia to a non-toxic form (ie, ammo-lock, amquel)...I would actually recommend using them (which i NEVER do!), until you can get your critters into the 29 gall. Keep in mind, when you use these products, your ammonia tests will still register the "converted" ammonia, and you shouldn't continue to use them once you are going to cycle your tank...because if you're removing all the ammonia...then the bacteria don't have anything to "eat". If you don't have any of this stuff...just keep up with the water changes (how much are you changing?)

We don't have any of this stuff by we'll see what we can do about getting something. We've been changing out 2-3 gal every day since the Ich started.

Also...what type of filter are you running? Make sure there's no carbon in there when you're medicating!

The filter type is Regent Aqua-Tech Cartridge Filters. Yes, I remove the carbon (cuit a whole in the filter media, and dumped it out as good as I could)

 

[sweetsuvvyb]

I'm not trying to give you conflicting info, just making sure you understand that if you move the fish to the 29 gallon...you are STILL going to have the problems with ich and an uncycled tank, and that you will STILL have ammonia problems (although the levels would much diminished). In short, there is NO reason to NOT have them in the 29 gallon!

I was suggesting the ammo-lock because a lot of pet stores send new fish owners home with it...and it would keep your fish alive until you can move them (since constant water changes aren't really an option for most of us!). If you don't have any, there certainly isn't any need to go buy it.

 

[gboutwel]

Ok. We've moved the 2 plecos to the 29 gal. Basically same type filter media as the 10 gal tank, but we've removed it and are using sponge instead. We'll be moveing the other fish over gradually throught the rest of the day.

We tested the 29 Gal tank before doing all this. This is what we started with:

Ammonia (ppm)/Nitrate (ppm)/Nitrite (ppm)/Hardness (ppm)/Alkalinity (ppm) /pH

1, Mon 10/13 0.3/10.0/0.0/50/40.0/7.2

Given that we still have to treat Ich and apply meds. Given that this means we won't be cycling our tank and will in sense have to forgoe that till the Ich cleans-up. What thng should we be concerned about. Ammonia spikes, mainely and trying to keep Ammonia down, right? Is that it? Anything else?

The 29 gal tank has an under gravel filtration unit with 2 'filters'. I need to remove the carbon from them too, right? Even if the underwater filtration isn't 'running' (the air-pump for it is on order, should come in today)

 

[jsoong]

I think you've got the hang of it. For now, the thing to watch for is ammonia. Try to keep it down below 1.0 - aim for 0.5. Depending on what you are using to treat ich, your cycling may continue - mine did. Once you see nitrite (hopefully in a few days), the ammonia will start dropping and then you have to keep the nitrite level down. I noticed that you have nitrates in your water - so you cannot use that as end point of your cycling - you'll have to watch for the nitrite level to drop & the nitrates to rise. The second phase (NO2 -> NO3) is rather slower to establish than the first (NH3 -> NO2) - in my case about 3-4 times slower.

I think it'll be easier to keep the levels in check in the 29 gal - you have 3 times the water, so the rate of rise is 3 times slower. YOu can also keep the NH3 spike down by feeding less.

BTW if you are keeping the goldies in the 10 gal, you may consider a 100% water change. ( To get from your current NH3 level of 6.0 to less than 1 will require a 90% water change anyway! ) Basically you move the fish to a temporary container (clean, with declor water, right temp, etc.) Then you get rid of all the old tank water - making sure to give the gravel a good clean - to get rid of all accumulated fish waste & as much of the ich as possible. Then refill & start with a clean slate, so to speak. This a fair bit of work & I am not sure if it is worth it for you , might just be as easy to move every one to the 29 gal, get everything stablized & worry about moving the goldies back to the 10 gal later.

Regarding the carbon on the UGF, by all means take them out. They don't do much & keep falling off, so I never use mine. The carbon in the HOB is plenty. If you read some of the threads here, there is quite a strong feeling that the HOB alone is plenty & the UGF just caused more trouble than it is worth!

Good luck with your fish & I hope it'll be easier going from now on!