first time tropical tank with dieing fish part two

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honey-lovin

Aquarium Advice Apprentice
Joined
Jul 19, 2009
Messages
28
Location
south australia
i have found time to get on this great forum again (i hope i am posting in the right place now and that the fantastic people that commented on my last post can find it here :D)

Starting with basic information about my tank i have a 210 liter tank (4ft in length) a large aqua one internal filter, large air stone (30 cm) a 300watt heater, a few plants here and there plus a few ornaments.

i have had the aquarium set up for tropical fish for roughly the last 5 months. (i have had the tank itself) for a lot longer with 5 gold fish (comets) and a medium sized axolotl.

Before i started setting up the tank for tropical conditions i moved house and thus removed roughly 80% of the water to actually move the tank. Shortly after my axolotl died and I decided that I wanted to look at keep other much smaller fish, so I moved my very large comets into our new pond and started changing the tank for tropical conditions. Did a 40% water change and let it “filter” with nothing in it for a few weeks.

At this stage being honest I had very little/no information on ammonia, nitrites nitrates, GH and phosphates so didn’t test for any.

i started doing research into tropical and bought myself the 300watt heater… within a fortnight I had bought 4 lyre tail mollies (of which one pregnant female died...id say within the first 7 days) i still have my male and two females up to this day and all are looking healthy. (also in addition to the 3 surviving mollies i bought another female to even out the ratios)


after seeing that my mollies were happily swimming around enjoying the 210 liters of water space I thought I would start adding platys ( a grand total of 9 over a 3 week period)

a little after that I bought a couple more and it wasn’t until I had the following fish in the tank that they started dieing:

3 female lyre tail mollies
1 male lyre tail mollie
6 female platys
3 male platys
1 clown loach
3 female guppies
3 bristle noses
2 peppered catfish
1 (unknown zebra fish that was donated to me by a friend)





of which the following have died

2 female platys
1 male platy
3 pregnant guppies
1 tiny bristle nose


And to my surprise, one or two have given birth to 5 babies which I was able to catch and keep alive in a pen (they look nice and healthy)

Anyway, enough history my water conditions were as I said tested by a local pet store and they informed me that my nitrates where very low, nitrites were very low and also my ammonia was very low ( I wrote that they were at 0 in my last post but some of you kindly replied that they cant ever be at 0) as for my phosphates they sat at 10 so I bought anti phosphate media to put inside one section of my internal filter and have kept it going 24/7 since the purchase.

My ph level sits about 7 to 7.4 which should be alright for my fish. Also there have been no visible signs of algae growth or white spot which seems to be a very common cause of death… the only thing I noticed was a white haze/cloudy trait to the water, just about the time the first fish died. I performed a 50% water change and went on to do 20-30%
Water changes every 3-4 days till the water was no longer cloudy. And have gone back to doing 30% water changes once a week along with ph tests.


MY QUESTIONS:

Firstly is it possible that my fish are some how suffocating somehow. I ask because that appears to be the only symptom the fish have shown 24 hours before dieing. They have been separating themselves from the “pack” and just wallowing on there own for a day or so as if they had absolutely no energy and were suffocating… sometimes coming up to the surface to gasp air and eat.

Second question: could it be that the zebra fish brought some sort of illness with it? At first it was a completely white fish when it was introduced and then had blue and silver/gold stripes come back within a week or so… it has not shown any signs of illness since I have had it.

Third: Is there any kind of algae that cannot be seen within the water itself… one of my plants has a black growth on it ( I thought of black beard but the growth on my plants was literally just like a mossy cover rather then fluffy wispy growth like black beard is)

Fourth: Is it worth my while to buy a five in one “dip stick” test kit that tests for ammonia, nitrates, nitrites, GH etc.?


I hope that my biography of my aquarium has stated every detail needed to diagnose my problem.

Thanks very much to the people that commented the first time round and the people have just read this post :D








 
I agree with Thom, don't get the test strips, they are inaccurate. I would get a good liquid test kit. As far as the fish suffocating, I doubt that is the case here. More than likely you had an ammonia spike and it killed some of your fish. White hazey/cloudy water is a sign of a bacterial bloom (a good thing). I'd suggest reading up on the nitrogen cycle so you have a better understanding of what ammonia, nitrites, and nitrates mean in your aquarium. Here is a good article:

http://www.aquariumadvice.com/articles/articles/24/1/Nitrogen-Cycle-/Page1.html

Your second question... the zebra could've been stressed to the point that he appeared faded. Once he settled in and got used to his new tank then his colors started to come back. That would be my guess.

Third question... I guess if you consider green and white water algae then yes. It can be hard to tell sometimes if the water is white or green. I find it easiest to pour it into a cup. If you want to check for white water, pour it into a clear glass cup. If you want to check for green water, pour it in a white cup so you can tell easier.

Fourth.. I went over this, don't waste your money. Go buy a $20 freshwater master liquid test kit.
 
thanks to the both of you so far, ill start hunting down other types of test kits... might be a little tricky because i think my local pet store only sell the test strips...

i also wanted to ask a question on bio load... could it have been that there were too many fish in the tank and it created the spike in amonia, nitrates or nitrites???

i was interested to read about the good bacteria that live in the gravel and thought about how much your supposed to have in your tank (currently i have about a cm. in my tank)

also if i cant get my hands on a liquid tester kit would it be worth buying the strips for the mean time untill i can find one... i realy would like it if i could find the problem and solve it before any more die
 
get the API master kit for testing.


you ran the tank for a few weeks with no fish, which means you wernt putting food in the tank, meaning you killed off the bacteria and are now cycling again.

It is a good thing but cycling with that many fish can pose a problem, you might lose more.

Ive lost a few fish to this, not the ones Id expect to lose much like yourself, my angels and neons have cycled 4 tanks now where I can only get 1-2 cycles out of platies or guppies, ect ect,.

how did you clean the tank before the new tropicals got in there? a simple PWC or did you clean the excess crap out of the gravel bed too?
 
i also wanted to ask a question on bio load... could it have been that there were too many fish in the tank and it created the spike in amonia, nitrates or nitrites???

also if i cant get my hands on a liquid tester kit would it be worth buying the strips for the mean time untill i can find one... i realy would like it if i could find the problem and solve it before any more die

The large bioload is most likely the cause of the spike, yes. Adding that many fish in such a short time, into an uncycled tank, will cause a spike. I'd definitely read that article on the Nitrogen Cycle if you haven't already.

I would hold off on buying any test kits until you can find a liquid one. You'd be better off saving your money until you can find one. I made the mistake of buying them and didn't realize how inaccurate they are until I bought a liquid test kit (from API) and compared the results. I was shocked at the difference!
 
steve and white devil, thanks for the latest advice. ill hold off on buying the strips and hunt down the test kit from "API" i have now read up on them and they look like the way to go. as for the link i have started reading and shall finish it asap in the mean time i hope iether things have settled down now and idealy there is no more advice for people to give but im sure thats not the case :p

is there anything that i can be doing to assist my tank through the high phosphate levels and the cycling

thanks
 
Without having exact readings of your ammonia, nitrites, and nitrates it is hard to tell what stage of the cycling process you are in. Once you get a liquid test kit and post your results we will be able to give you some better, more specific, advice.

I would keep doing water changes since you have fish in the tank already. Ideally you want to keep nitrates below 20ppm if possible (40ppm the highest). Ammonia and nitrites should be kept below .25ppm if fish are in the tank. Anything over that and it can potentially harm your fish. It may not be apparent right away but the overall lifespan of the fish will drastically decrease when exposed to high ammonia/nitrite levels.

I would maybe do a 25% every other day for a while. Getting the test kit is your #1 priority. Without it you have no idea what is going on in the tank.
 
as steve pointed out those strips are absolute junk, I could find a million uses for them just not using them to test water.


the API is around 23.99 on average some are more some are less.

get some hornwort for the tank, itll suck alot of the stuff up that is causing you problems.
 
:) understood steve, it shall be my number one priority. i shall be buying that test kit asap i think i found a store close by that sells them... also i have read that link on aquarium cycling, it was very informative and simple to understand.

i shall give you a report on my tests within the next day
 
hhmm interesting:D would you mind telling me exactly what hornwort is? just looking on google it apears to be a nice frilly looking aquarium fern. correct?

your comment just got the me thinking about the affects of increasing the amount of plants i have in the tank. its possible i bought some hornwort before or a plant that looked somewhat the same, but it got destroyed by the fish :)

should i buy more plants? i found that the aquarium reeds prosper nicely in the tank but id also like to buy hardy plants that are low slung to add some varity to the tank... any ideas? i also have two clumps of java moss that are doing nicely

is it worth me buying new plants now? i know for a fact that i got the pet store to test my water and it showed high phosphates(10) for the first time 3 weeks ago and i have had anti-phosphate media in my filter for coming up two weeks now without(havent tested again)
 
Well, I was going to post responses to each of the questions that you asked, but Steve said almost word for word what I would have said in response to each of them, so I won't bother repeating since his answers were all excellent and should have helped you quite a bit.

For now I think I'll just wait to see what your exact ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate readings are once you get your API master test kit and then go from there. I agree with the previous replies with regards to your tank probably having an ammonia spike and bacterial bloom which caused the white cloudiness in your water and also could have easily led to the death of your fish if they were already a bit weak from being stressed out or anything. The same goes with the color fading on your zebras, stress is typically the culprit of that.

Get those test results posted to us so we can hopefully help you out and explain what went wrong for you before so you can prevent it in the future!


P.S. Just saw the picture that you have uploaded of your tank -- very nice looking!
 
im back, i perchased the API master test kit as you recomended.

i have done double tests just to get the feel for the kits ( rather tricky the first time)

the test results were as followed:

ph 7.2 to 7.6,
ammonia=0 possibly 0.25 ( it was tricky to tell the exact reading for this one hence the 0 to 0.25 but im sure it was no higher)
nitrites= 0 (im very possitive on this resault)
nitrates= between 20 and 40 (once again i found it hard to tell the exact reading)

now from what i know the only aspect of the tests that looks out of order is the the high nitrates.

i bought myself a nice piece of "bog wood" with a great plant

now what should i do to reduce the nitrate levels?

should i buy more plants to soak up the nitrates or follow a different path?

:D
 
I suggest you do a 50% water change to see if that brings down the nitrates to a suitable level and be sure that you do water changes at least once a week to help control the nitrates. As far as the plants it never hurts to have more to consume the nitrate (that is until they run out of nitrate if you have a huge amount of plants).
 
I agree with Razor, do a 50% water change and then retest. See if that brings your nitrates down to a more reasonable level. Yes, adding more plants will help consume the nitrates. Also, in doing the 50% water change that should bring your ammonia closer to 0ppm. Sounds like you are through the worst of it. Keep up on the PWCs and testing.
 
its a shame i dont have time for the water change tonight but i shall give the tank the 50% water change... thats alot of water :S

i shall keep up my weekly water changes and testing aswell...

currently my tank has 3 plants and two bushels of java moss.... how many plants would you recomend i have for a 55 gal tank supporting 19 small fish?

also my tank has very little gravel and when i was reading the link on tank cycling i realised the importance of the gravel and more to the point the bacteria that break down waist etc. my tank currently has about 1 cm worth of gravel... do i need to add more...

i have a filter tap in my kitchen and was wondering due to low water levels in the local dam is it worth using the tap filter? would it do anything?

and lastly. i have worked out that i have more fish that like ph levels to sit of 7 rather then higher... i tested my tap water and it came out as 7.6 is it worth trying to combat that each week to bring it down by 0.6??
 
Just a note: I usually do a 50% water change then test the water the next day. I dont know if others do, but I just figure that gives the tank a chance for the dechlor to settle in and the tank to settle. I assume the readings would be more accurate that way. Am I wrong?
 
Ideally you would want to wait a while before testing, yes. I have never been able to find an exact figure but apparently the dechlor is supposed to work almost instantaneously. If honey has nitrates of 20-40ppm I think you will be able to notice a change almost immediately after the PWC.

I noticed this when I was cycling my tank with fish in (years ago before I joined this site)... I had some danios and tetras in it, ammonia got to around .75 and I kept doing water changes until it got to a little below .25ppm. I would do a water change, test, and do some more. I never waited more than 10 minutes. I could be wrong and things could've changed by now.

I would think that the dechlor would have to act pretty quick, if it didn't then your fish would be submitted to those chemicals during the period it takes to 'kick in'.
 
I agree with what everyone else has said about your test results. A nice 50% water change should put your numbers back in check and then close monitoring of them from them on out to make sure that your numbers don't start climbing back up over the week would be a good thing to watch for.

Once you are to the point where you never have any ammonia or nitrite readings, a weekly partial water change should be more than enough to keep your nitrate readings from reaching any dangerous levels.

As for how long to wait after testing the water again after doing a water change -- I usually test my water a couple of hours after I do my partial water change for the week, even though I don't suspect any problems, I just like to keep a log of how my tank is from one week to the next. I have never had any of my readings be off by not waiting a full day to test it. I have also tested it a couple hours after my water change, and then the following morning just to compare the results and they were usually exactly the same. That being said, I don't think waiting a day really makes much of a difference.
 
currently my tank has 3 plants and two bushels of java moss.... how many plants would you recomend i have for a 55 gal tank supporting 19 small fish?

You can fill every inch of that tank with plants and the fish would be fine. It just depends on what look you like best. Mine is pretty heavily planted, but I tend to keep the center fairly open. Its just my personal preference. The fish you have all like planted tanks.

my tank currently has about 1 cm worth of gravel... do i need to add more...

If you are going to add more plants you will probably need deeper gravel for the roots. How are you keeping your other plants down right now? A 1.5 inch gravel bed is pretty good, deeper for plants with big root systems.

. i tested my tap water and it came out as 7.6 is it worth trying to combat that each week to bring it down by 0.6??

A stable pH is more important than the perfect number. The pH coming from my tap is about 7.6. I don't try to lower it. If you start messing with it and have big swings it is more harmful to the fish than the perfect number. Your fish should be fine with that number, as long as you do not create swings in the amounts. Your fish are probably already acclimated to the pH in there now. If you do want to try to get it lower slowly, driftwood is good at that. It will lower it slowly over time, slow enough that the fish do not get stressed. You can also get some peat moss to put in your filter. I have never done that myself, so don't know where you would get it. My planted tank is filled with fish that have profiles saying 7.0 or below pH but my tank pH is 7.4 and they have been fine for the past 3 years. I have monthly spawns from almost all my fish too.
 
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