Fish dying...

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vero

Aquarium Advice Activist
Joined
Jan 7, 2005
Messages
119
Location
Montreal, Canada
Hi,

(if you don't feel like reading my long post, skip to the questions below in bold)

I started my aquarium at the beginning of March. I didn't use any of the cyling products mentionned in this forum. I let the aquarium settle for 3 weeks, filter running, gravel, plastic plants and a piece of mopani wood that had been soaking (water changed every few days) for a few months installed in the tank.

I first bought 3 long fin corys to initiate the cycling at the end of March. Two of them died during the following week. I was testing my water regularly and saw only a slight change in the ammonia (0.50) and an even smaller change in the nitrite during that week. Then the ammonia level sort of settled at 0.25 and nitrite at 0. I don't have a test for nitrate.

Since only one fish wasn't going to be enough to do the cycle, I bought 3 guppies and 2 corys. That was at the end of April. Two guppies and 1 cory died during the next week. My ammonia and nitrite stayed at 0.25 and 0.

I recently (last week) bought 3 more guppies to keep company to my one guppy (poor guy...). Since no fish had died in the last month an a half I thought it was ok. Two of them died over night. The 3rd one as well as the one I had had since April died a few days later.

I only have my two corys left.

I don't know if my cycling is done or not. Maybe I missed the spike since I didn't test every day. Or maybe it never cycled even after almost 4 months! Is there a way to tell?

Is it normal for fish to die so quickly (Really... overnight?)?. I always buy my fish at the same store. Their aquarium are super clean, I've never seen any dead fish in them and the fish always look great and swimming a lot and fast. I don't want to buy more fish and see them die so quickly. It's also starting to cost (I'm really glad I'm not buying saltwater fish at 50$ each! I'd go bankrupt!).

Thanks for your help (and sorry for the long message).

Vero
 
Sorry to hear about your troubles vero. This is a great place to start to understanding the cycle.

You have all the equipment necessary to monitor your cycle. It pays to be diligent with the testing. The parameters change constantly and you need to know when they happen.

Have you done anything with the filter (cleaning, rinsing) or the gravel (vacuuming) add/remove decor, etc.?
 
Ask about the water parameters at the store you're buying from (pH, etc.). Your water may be a lot different from the fish store's water. My water at home is much different from that of my LFS. One uses RO in all of their tanks. I use tap. It makes a big difference. I'd also try shopping at a different store by checking with other local fish keepers. For instance near me, there is a LFS that has beautiful tanks with lots of pretty fish. That is if you go in to the store in the afternoon. If you go in when they first open, they have a lot of floaters. I've even seen tanks where they're still selling fish with ich and body fungus to customers that don't know better. It's a place that I like to stop by to look, but NEVER buy.
 
Hi,

Thanks for the replies.


wabyrd: very interesting comment... I've always seen the tanks in the afternoon... maybe they would look different first thing in the morning! My water is probably more acidic then the one at the lfs because of the piece of wood (it is aroun 8.6). How can I help the fish get used to that? I usually add a small amount of my water to the bag every 15 minutes and an hour or so later use the net to put the fish in the tank. (I don't keep the water in the bag). Should I wait longer?

Jchillin: I really should have done my tests every day! But I didn't. Is there a way to tell if the cycle as been done without having seen that spike? Is there a way to test for nitrate? I beleive if I can see nitrate that would mean that the cycle is in place, no? I did move the gravel to lift up junk so that the filter would pick it up (I didn't vaccum or change the water). I also had to rinse the filter once (I rinsed it with water I keep in a buckt to add to the aquarium and then I rinsed it with some water from the aquarium). It was clogged with matter and that was affecting the flow.


Thanks again
 
You can use a natural pH lowering agent (peat) or you can use chemicals. Be very careful with the chemicals though. They can cause problems really fast. You can also add a few drops of muriatic acid from the pool store to titrate to the correct pH. DO IT SLOWLY!
 
instead of trying to change your pH, why not research fish that will thrive in your water conditions? Also, guppies and cories are NOT the type of fish you want to cycle with. Zebra Danios are very hardy and would be the only kind of fish I would cycle a tank with. There is the other option of cycling without fish as well.

BTW, how big is your tank?
 
Good point rubysoho, but the pH is still a bit high at 8.7. I also have to agree with you on the Zebra Danios. That's what I use to cycle a tank if I don't have any way to "seed" the tank. They are Ultrahardy!
 
That is a really high pH!
My water is probably more acidic then the one at the lfs because of the piece of wood (it is aroun 8.6).
The higher the number, the more basic the tank is.

Do a little experiment and post the results. Allow a cup of tap water to sit out over night and then test the pH. Also, ask the LFS what pH their tanks are at.
 
For those interested:

The pH of a sample of water is a measure of the concentration of hydrogen ions.

pH is the negative logarithm of the hydrogen ion (H+) concentration. What this means to those of us who are not mathematicians is that at higher pH, there are fewer free hydrogen ions, and that a change of one pH unit reflects a tenfold change in the concentrations of the hydrogen ion. For example, there are 10 times as many hydrogen ions available at a pH of 7 than at a pH of 8. The pH scale ranges from 0 to 14.

A pH of 7 is considered to be neutral.

The following link gives you a picture of the pH scale with the pH of common substances. http://waterontheweb.org/under/waterquality/art/phscale.gif

Less than 7 = acidic
Greater than 7 = basic
 
Hi,

Thanks for your replies.

About the nitrate:

Jchillin: I bought a nitrate test (Nutrafin). It shows 5mg/L. I re-tested the ammoniac and nitrite and they are both 0. I guess the cycle is on it's way but not done.

About the pH:

Yeah... just realized I mixed up the pH scale... thanks for pointing it out. My water is very basic at 8.6. I did do a test on tap water (I let it sit overnight in a bowl) and the pH was quite neutral (sorry, I don't remember the value). I also tested the water in which my piece of wood was soaking and the pH was more basic (around 8.2). I had assume that wood, like peat, would make the water acidic... I was wrong. The one thing I didn't test is my gravel. I did test that it didn't react with vinegar (didn't have anything more acidic). If it did react with an acid, that would mean it is basic and would raise my pH, right?. I have some gravel eftover and will let some sit overnight in water and test the water to see it's effect. But I really think the culprit is the wood. I've read the articles and they mention that it is quite hard to lower pH... not something I want to get into. They also mention that some cichlid do good in basic water. Does anyone know a good website that would mention the pH range for different species?

Vero
 
thanks Hoovercat

According to this site, my two corys shouldn't survive in my tank... they look quite the happy little fish though.
 
vero said:
About the pH:

Yeah... just realized I mixed up the pH scale... thanks for pointing it out. My water is very basic at 8.6. I did do a test on tap water (I let it sit overnight in a bowl) and the pH was quite neutral (sorry, I don't remember the value). I also tested the water in which my piece of wood was soaking and the pH was more basic (around 8.2). I had assume that wood, like peat, would make the water acidic... I was wrong. The one thing I didn't test is my gravel. I did test that it didn't react with vinegar (didn't have anything more acidic). If it did react with an acid, that would mean it is basic and would raise my pH, right?. I have some gravel eftover and will let some sit overnight in water and test the water to see it's effect. But I really think the culprit is the wood. I've read the articles and they mention that it is quite hard to lower pH... not something I want to get into. They also mention that some cichlid do good in basic water. Does anyone know a good website that would mention the pH range for different species?

there is something wrong with that piece of wood.. that is not normal.. my best guess is that it was in a saltwater tank for some reason, and returned to the store.. or got into a reef sump at the store... I dont know exactly what happened but unless the wood is made of stone it shouldnt be making the water harder..
 
more water results

Hi,

I did some experiences: two plastic containers filled with water, one with the same gravel as is in my aquarium (I had some leftover) one without, left 24h (no lid).

the results:

without gravel: pH 8.0, GH 7 drops (125.3ppm). NH3 0 or 0.25 ppm? (I have a hard time seeing the difference between 0 and 0.25), NO2 0ppm, NO3 0ppm.

with gravel: pH 8.0, GH 8 drops (143.2 pm).

water from the aquarium (I had some waste on the bottow; I mixed the water a few times to lift it so the filter would pick most of it; I also rinsed the filter in water that I keep in a bucket). : pH 7.8, gh 13 drops (232.7ppm), NH3 0-0.25 ppm, NO2 0ppm, NO3 between 5 and 10 ppm (it is darker then a week ago so the NO3 is slowly going up).

I compared side by side the pH tubes from the 3 waters: the one from just water and the one from water with ravel are identical. The one from the aquarium is lightly yellower which means that it is a bit more acidic. I find very strange that a week ago the pH was way higher (more like 8.4-8.6 ).... perhaps I just had too much waste in the aquarium and that raised the pH. Would that be a correct hypothesis?

From the website Hoovercat gave (it is very well made and easy to search), most fish prefer neutral to acidic water. Some like slightly basic water: guppies (pH 5.5 to 8 ), betta (pH 6 to 8 ), swordtail (pH 7 to 8.3 ), some tetras (most prefer pH 5.5 to 7.5 but a few can go to 8 and even 8.5 ) and pearl gourami (pH 6.5 to 8, but it would become too big for my 20gal aquarium) should be able to live in my water provided I keep it clean enough that I don't have pH spikes. Those fish are able to live in pH up to 8 so my pH is quite borderline for them so I will avoid them... I have yet to look through the cichlids to see if some would like higher pH than 8. I might try to find some silver or penguin tetras as they can be in pH up to 8.5.

I find my options quite restricted... but I really don't want to play with chemiclas to adjust the pH. Does anybody see other options (ideas of fish)?

Thanks a lot
Vero
 
Does anyone know a good website that would mention the pH range for different species?
Keep in mind that many of the more common fish have been captive bred long enough that they are adapted to water conditions other than what the wild caught species live in. Hard alkaline water is common in the USA, and many of the fish are adapted to it. So fussing and worrying over the pH may not be as important as you think. I have water with a pH of 7.6 to 7.8, and my fish are doing great. Using chemicals to adjust the pH frequently leads to rapid swings, which harm fish. A stable high pH is way better than a lower pH that bounces around. Organic wastes would tend to lower the pH, not raise it. However, new gravels, rocks etc. could be high in carbonate which will buffer the pH higher. Crushed coral is very high in carbonate and would raise the pH.

Your water is probably the same as your LFS, so whatever thrives at your LFS will likely thrive in your tank.
 
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