Fish TB? curved spine? Will I have to euthanize all?

[missmonday]

Hello,

I recently (on the 17th) purchased 5 kuhli loaches from my lfs, but wasn't there to "handpick" them perse, and only saw them once I got home. They all look healthy except for one, that had a bent spine, it looks like it has 2 bends.

Not to be a hypochondriac, but I'm afraid the one might have fish tb. Since my lfs is a dedicated aquatic store, I'll call them after the holiday, but would a microscope be the only way to tell?

They all still eat, and there aren't any bloody sores or open wounds. I'll try to post a pic when I can!

I'd hate to risk infecting any other fish. The kuhli loaches are currently in a cycled 10 gallon quarantine. I have a 29 gallon community, but I've been avoiding using the same equipment when possible.

 

[Matt68005]

No no no. One bent spine does not mean they have Fish TB. How can you even tell? A loach is a eel.....
There are other diseases that mimic Fish TB, like Aeromonas open sores. Fish TB is very rare, and most fish are resistant to Microbacterium naturally since it is present in all aquatic enviroments in nature....only weak fish would get sick.'
Id guess your overreacting!

 

[missmonday]

Sorry! Only started fishkeeping since August, so I'm still new and inexperienced. (I also still thought kuhli loaches would still be considered fish...?)

If not fish TB, would it be some sort of injury or birth defect?

First two pics are the loach with the bent spine. Sorry about the quality. Two have slightly gray patches (?) I'm not sure if it's natural patterning or not.

note: the kuhlis aren't covered in anything, my camera is just really crappy zoomed in so close. The loaches are very camera-shy.

Last pic is one of the very happy and active kuhlis

 

[Matt68005]

I would Euthanize it and go back to the store ask for another one.
I have never had an experiance with Fish TB. I think alot of times, people confuse it with Aermonoas samonicidia, which causes open red sores.
https://www.google.com/search?q=aer...hUKEwiz7J6Iz_jJAhVO6mMKHSjwD_wQ_AUIBigB&dpr=1

Either way, fish only get sick with bacteria when they are stressed out, wounded, or costantly around other sick fish. If you cull it now and sepearate it from the rest farly quickly, the risk of yYour entire tank getting sick and dying from bacteria is very very slim.
You'll later learn in this hobby that worms or internal parasites are the real tough ones, bacteria or fungus or ick is nothing.

 

[missmonday]

Well I figured I'd have to euthanize the one with the funny spine...my lfs doesn't cover anything beyond 24hrs, so I suppose I'll replace it and start over the 30 day qt.

Do the gray spots look like sores or natural patterning? Never owned kuhlis or any other type of loaches before.

 

[Matt68005]

Actually dont kill it, put it in a bowl or something tonight with water, and when the pet store opens monday, take it back and get another one.
If your really cocerned about bacteria, you could treat the entire tank prophilactilly with Furan-2 Nitrofurazone, its a good mild plant safe, catfish safe, Good bacteria safe antibiotic/anti-microbial agent.
IDK anything about eels, google if its safe to use with them in there if you so choose to use it to stearilize stuff.
Hope some of this helps!

 

[Matt68005]

I think the people that freak out about having Fish TB wipe out their tank, actually dealt with Aeromonas Salmoncidia........
TB is pretty rare!
A microscope is a good idea, Im gonna get one to share with my 8 year old daughter, shes interested in my fish and plants and bugs stuff hobby as well.
Grey patches are just secondary fungus (actually water mould) That will in-fect areas that bacteria have moved thru and ate the skin. The bacteria leaves area of dead skin that fungus then eats. Fungus should not ever live on healthy fish skin.

 

[missmonday]

Well, my plan now is to call my lfs, see if they'll do an exchange. If not, I'll euthanize the bent kuhli and try to get a replacement. I also want to bump up my cory numbers by 2, but not sure if I should keep 2 cories in with the kuhlis...

I do have nitrofurazone, and API warns that it may harm the biological filter, so all I can do is just up the frequency of pwcs?
Anything I can do about the gray patches? They don't look fuzzy to me.
Whenever I get the new kuhli (and possibly 2 cories), I'll start over the 30 day qt.

 

[coralbandit]

The spots look like coloring IMO.
The furan 2 used correctly has not had a noticeable impact on any of my tanks...
I am using furan2 and kanaplex now and just tested after day 4/treatment 2...
Follow directions.....

The bent spine could be a nutritional deficiency,old injury,birth defect or any number of diseases...

IMO most cories should do fine with kuhlis...

 

[missmonday]

Since I have nitrofurazone by api, it says that 1 packet is for 10 gallons, and then retreat after 24hrs and a 50% water change. Should I half dose because kuhlis are scaleless fish? The packaging doesn't say anything about scaleless fish, just that it's not safe for inverts.

Should I euthanize the bent spine kuhli or not? I'm just not too sure...

 

[RackinRocky]

Don't be too quick to be telling people fish TB is rare. I got it in my tanks, and got it myself, so I have some knowledge on it. I've been on antibiotics (high powered) for 7 months now. It's nasty--really, really nasty. I had abscesses that had to be drained, and almost ended up in the hospital for IV antibiotics. Nurses were sent to my house daily, then twice a week to clean, pack and dress my "holes" where the abscesses were for weeks. All aquarists, IMO, after what I've been through, should ALWAYS wear aquarium gloves that go up to the shoulder, and never, ever put your bare hands in the water. I learned the hard way.

I know I've posted on this before, but if I can save even one person from going through what I have . . . I don't want to scare anyone, but prevention is so much easier than going through this nightmare. It's very difficult to get rid of once you have it in your tanks, or your own body. Even if you tear them down and bleach them, microbacterium will not necessarily be killed like other fish diseases. Like I said, it's NASTY. It's insidious, and never indestructible. I have to eat yogurt daily and take probiotics because of the long-term antibiotic use, which is not a good thing itself, but it's better than dying of the disease. It is a cousin to tuberculosis. It doesn't affect the lungs though, just the skin. But you can end up with sores or abscesses all over your arms and legs from this disease. I had four abscesses that were nearly an inch across. A doctor must be educated about it. Luckily my doctor consulted an infectious diseases specialist, and they found that it was Microbacterium marinum, NOT cellulitis as I was originally diagnosed with. After reading online, I realized it wasn't cellulitis, and my doctor listened to me (unlike a lot of them) and put me on the appropriate antibiotic, after having been on incorrect ones for over a month. I have a month or more to go on the antibiotics, and then we will see if it comes back. I'm not looking forward to it. If it comes back, I'll have to go back on treatment.

This is not a disease to mess around with! And though uncommon, it IS out there, and any fish you bring into your tanks could potentially be harboring it. I'm not saying your kuhli has it, in fact, it probably doesn't, but I do want people to be aware. . .

 

[missmonday]

Thanks for the concern, and so sorry that happened to you!!

I ended up not euthanizing the kuhli because I've been busy the past couple of days, and after just observing and keeping an eye on things, it seems as though the spine bends have almost entirely gone away. Even when I watch all 5 kuhlis go after a shrimp pellet, I have a hard time telling which one is the one with a funny spine.

Is it possible that it just (largely) went away on its own? Other than hiding, which I know is normal kuhli behavior, they seem pretty active and swim about the tank freely. If it was injury, did it heal so quickly??

Since I want to bump up my cory numbers in my dt and I want to add a honey gourami, I'll be adding 3 more fish in total to the qt since it seems the kuhlis are okay. And by adding new fish, I'd be starting over the 30 day qt.

Should I go along with adding the nitrofurazone as a prophylactic, or would that stress the fish too much?

Thanks for everyone's advice and support, I'm still trying to play things by ear.

 

[coralbandit]

Save the meds for another issue or time...

 

[RackinRocky]

I agree--don't medicate unless it's clearly necessary. Medications used unnecessarily encourages antibiotic resistance. If everyone did that, we soon would not have any effective antibiotics for anyone--ourselves or our fish. Sounds like maybe the kuhli was netted wrong or something, and it straightened out on its own. That's good!

 

[Matt68005]

I agree--don't medicate unless it's clearly necessary. Medications used unnecessarily encourages antibiotic resistance. If everyone did that, we soon would not have any effective antibiotics for anyone--ourselves or our fish. Sounds like maybe the kuhli was netted wrong or something, and it straightened out on its own. That's good!

You should tell that to Dr.'s and PCPs....apparently they are in the dark about this prescribing antibiotics for Ovbious viral illness.
My intent was not to "dumb down" Fish TB. Ive never had it, and i imagine it can be quite devestating to both the fish and the fishkeeper. Sorry to hear that rocky.
Its just that some people are way too quick to jump the Diagnosis gun, and when you start talking Tuberlosis...you scare people away from the hobby for nothing. I do agree with you, knowledge is power. But with all these horrible fish diseases, its hard for noobs to make it in this hobby. Most will get Columnaris or NTD or Camallanus and give up on the hobby just when it starts to get fun! Its too bad.
I had this lady on a Facebook group, she had some fish i think guppies with bent spines and open red sores. She mentioned that many of the fish at the store looked like this. Pretty sure that was Fish TB and pretty sure i scared her away from the hobby for good with my pictures of TB. lol
In hindsight, it could have simply aeromonas bacteria. So to make the diagnosis between normal open red sores type bacteria and Fish TB, we would have to have many fish infected showing open sores AND bent spines.