flashing - need help

[tetrin]

i recently upgraded from a 10g to a 55g on 21st of this month and am facing some problems ...
the tank is medium planted (quarter of the plants from the 10g)...current residents are -
1. from the 10g -
3 rosy barbs (1 currently in qt with fin rot)
2 black tetras
1 betta
1 SAE
1 CAE
2. newly added -
3 rosy barbs (1 currently in qt with frayed fins, bought it that way...extremely stupid not to notice :x )
3 gold gouramis
2 pearl gouramis

since i used all the gravel and the aquaclear filter from the established 10g (2 months), i went ahead and thought that cycling would take a lot less time than usual...but i guess there's a long learning curve...

i don't have a ammonia test kit...but the rest of the parameters are as follows...
nitrite 0.2 ,
nitrate 40,
Gh 300,
Kh 180,
ph 7.8 (has been on the high side from the beginning)

now the problems -
1.one gold gourami and a tetra are flashing their gills against plants or rocks, nothing visible on the body...i am guessing it the onset of ich or any other parasite in the gills...
2.one rosy barb is kind of bloated and not moving much...scales are not sticking out yet...but i think its tending towards dropsy...
3.currently i have the qt full with 2 rosy barbs with fin damage and treating them with melafix

i have done a 10% water change today but i don't see any symptoms of ammonia or nitrite poisoning...all the fish are eating hungrily...

i need some suggestions on how to deal with sick fish...in the two months i have been in this hobby, i have lost 7 fish...a few to gross ignorance and a few died despite my best efforts...it really breaks my heart to see them pass away...

so any help would readily be appreciated...

 

[Menagerie]

nitrite 0.2 ,
nitrate 40,
Gh 300,
Kh 180,
ph 7.8

Your pH is fine--better to be stable than perfect.
The nitrites are too high, they should be undectable and the nitrates are at the high end. Most fish can tolerate up to 40ppm of nitrates.
Do a 30% PWC and then start treating for ich with heat and salt. Read the FW ich article and go with that for now. Please keep this post updated.
The bloating isn't ich; where the scale starting to pop out? Do you ever feed them blanched peas?

 

[tetrin]

the scales are not really popping out, but i guess they are kinda different near the mid-section of the barb...and it's not its busy self, but just hiding out in the corners...which led me to believe it was starting to come down with dropsy...i am keeping a close watch on it and will move it to the qt if its condition deteriorates...
i'll go ahead and start treating the tank after the pwc...
thanks again for the info...

 

[tetrin]

oh, and i regularly feed them peas once a week...which they devour like little wolves ....

 

[Menagerie]

oh, and i regularly feed them peas once a week...which they devour like little wolves

Good to hear and it rules out bloating caused by intestinal blockage. Keep an eye on that fish (I know you will ).

 

[tetrin]

oh boy...i wasn't definitely prepared for what i saw this morning...
the rosy barb was at the bottom of the tank, most of its body eaten away, i suspect by the gouramis...it was too distorted to recognize if it actually had dropsy or not...
and then to my horror i saw a gold gourami lying on the bottom too( i suspect it was the guy with the flashy thingy)...i took a closer look and found that it was covered in a whitish film...i think it was attcked by some fungal infection and it's immune system was already weak...so.... ...
i was speechless in front of the tank...

well, i can only hope for the best for the rest of the guys in there...i have started salt and heat treatment on the tank...nitrites immediately dropped to 0 last night after i did the pwc menagerie suggested...

 

[Menagerie]

I suspect water quality issues are playing a hand in the tank's poor health. I am sorry to hear about the barb and the gourami. Keep an eye on the other fish for a bacteria or fungal infection.

 

[tetrin]

i definitely will...
one more quick question...
how often should i do pwc's in a 5g qt housing 2 fish and while treating with melafix?
thanks

 

[Menagerie]

If teh tank is uncycled, I recommend 20-30% PWC every other day. Add the Melafix after the PWC

 

[tetrin]

ok...will do so...thanks a bunch...u really are a great help...

 

[Guest]

Fish flashing on rocks with milky coating definetely sounds like a parasite to me. I would suggest treating immediately.

 

[Guest]

Also, parasites might be the cause of the bloating. Here is some helpfull information I have found:

"Dropsy, is actually a "symptom" and not a disease in itself. the standing scales and blown up appearance are the result of swelling within the tissues and organs of the fish due to a build up of fluids in the kidneys and an inability to excrete this fluid in a normal manner. in other words, advanced kidney disfunction.

the problem with treating this disease is that there are a number of "potential" causes: in addition to the obvious water quality issues, most noteworthy causes include bacterial infection, parasites, cancerous tumors, virus', internal fungal infections or sudden temperature drop of more than 3 degrees.

If the cause is bacterial, the swelling typically comes on pretty rapidly. if swelling is gradual then one or more of the other potential causes are more likely. unfortunately, treatment is most often useless at this point due to the advanced state of the disease process. When the illness, whatever the cause, has progressed far enough to cause internal swelling, the concommitant internal damage is usually too extensive to be repairable.

the latest research has shown that if the disease cause is bacterial and if the disease process is caught early enough, treatment with Romet B, a broad spectrum antibacterial, *may* be effective when used concurrent with an increase in water temperature to 84-86F for 2 weeks minimum.

BE CERTAIN to maintain HIGH OXYGEN LEVELS during such treatment since at these temperatures, water holds significantly less oxygen at these higher water temperatures. one of the suspected bacterial precursers to the disease process -- Aeromonas, is killed at these temperatures.

concurrently add 1/8 teaspoon of EPSOM SALT -- per 5 gallons of water. feeding foods soaked in ERYTHROMYCIN will kill the second suspected bacteria, Mycobacterium. in rare cases popeye has been found to be caused by Edwardsiella etarda. this is found *only* in fish that have been bred in outdoor ponds -- the functional bacteria in this case is carried by frogs. while fair to good results in treatment have been found by feeding Romet B., even better results have been found using injectable chloramphenicol or amakacin. this is best done by your veterinarian.

If parasites are a known cause, treat for them first for 3 days increasing the temperature to 86oF raising the temp two degrees every 12 hours.

EPSOM SALT may help reduce the internal pressure casued by the swelling. extremely good aeration is necessary here due to the use of such high temperatures.

NEVER USE SALT (sodium chloride, a.k.a aquarium salt) for treatment of dropsy. this will KILL your fish in a very short time. the affected fish are already having a difficult time getting rid of salts due to kidney disfunction. this causes the blown up appearance and concurrent scale standing. the osmotic inbalance caused by addition of sodium to your tank water will make this condition far worse.

EPSOM SALT on the other hand, does not pass through the walls of the gut or gills and will extract water OUT of the surrounding tissue into the gut where it *may* be excreted."

 

[tetrin]

wow, how do you get hold of such extensive info... ...
thanks a million...helped me a lot in knowing about dropsy...
it looks to me its pretty tricky treating dropsy :? ...so i'll go ahead and keep the temps raised as i have been treating the tank for ich...i have not yet added salt as i saw a lot less flashing...and my lfs is poorly stocked in meds...so i have grave doubts about them carrying epsom salts...
about the milky coating...it is possible that the fungus attacked after the fish was dead due to parasitic infestation... ...

and thanks again for taking the time out to write the details...really appreciate it...

 

[Menagerie]

That info may have come from one of these sites:
http://www.aquatronicsonline.com/hobbyist/hobbyist3.htm
http://www.aqualink.com/disease/sdisease.html#ich
http://fish.mongabay.com/diseases.htm
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/AqBizSubWebIndex/fishdisho.htm

Look for the symptoms that your fish has and the best way to cure it. It may be a parasite, it could be ich and something else. Read through the descriptions throughly.

about the milky coating...it is possible that the fungus attacked after the fish was dead due to parasitic infestation...

YES!!

 

[tetrin]

ahah...
the flashing is definitely decreasing among the gouramis and other fishes...yesterday i saw only one rosy barb flash...so i guess heat is indeed working...temp steady at 87F...keeping my fingers crossed...

menagerie...i guess i'll quit thanking you in small installments...and send you a truckload later...

regarding infestation with parasites, i haven't seen anything yet that would point me towards gill flukes or any other gill parasites... the gills are neither red nor distended...so i'm banking on ich to save the day...at least its the lesser evil...

 

[Menagerie]

Continue to keep an eye on the fish and remove any dead fish immediately, or as soon as you see it. Use a flashlight if needed to look around the back of the tank, if your tank has lots of decor. Are you using salt along with the heat?

 

[tetrin]

don't worry...i am keeping a close eye on the guys and usually they don't like to hide...
the tank does have plenty of rocks and plants but the fish that i have are not shy...so i can pretty much monitor them without having to search too much...

and i haven't added salt yet for a number of reasons...
1. nothing to monitor salt levels...
2. heat is working pretty good...
3. i have killed a channel cat before by adding salt (i guess i added it too fast though)
4. plenty of plants in the tank...

let me know what you think....

 

[Menagerie]

3. i have killed a channel cat before by adding salt (i guess i added it too fast though)

That must have been a heck of a lot of salt!!

If you feel the heat is working, then go with your gut.

 

[Guest]

Epsom salt (Magnesium Sulphate - Heptahydrate) should only be used if there is swelling...you can get it at your pharmacy as people use it too. If you ever need this, only get the epsom salt in your pharmacy that may be taken internally.

 

[tetrin]

i'll keep a note of that...thanks fsh...

menagerie...i added about 5 tsp in the 10g tank...but i added it in about 3-4 hours...also maybe it didn't die of salt and i didn't make the correct diagnosis...the guy used to hide a lot and i rarely could see him to make an informed decision...being nocturnal has its disadvantages i guess... ...