Getting rid of an uncurable disease

[bloodlucky]

If you look at my latest thread, I've explained all the details regarding this unknown disease that has swept through countless amounts of fish including my baby angelfish and a very nice blue ram I had for almost a year. Basically, once it's in the fish, the fish's stomach gradually begins to decrease in width until eventually it is flat like a pancake and caved in until the stomach looks like an upside down V from the side. It had already killed 2 generations of platys, the second one I raised myself entirely, and now 2 of my gold barbs. There are several moments when I thought the disease had simply worn off, but boy was I wrong. I'm now fully aware that this is a very strong disease that just wont die as long as there is a host in the tank. So after I saw the very beginning symptoms showing up in the second gold barb after the first one had died, I immediately quarantined him in a 2.5 gal. Nearly a week later he died (today) and if you look at the photo I posted in the last thread his carcass perfectly fits my description of the damage of the disease.

Since I have not seen a case where two fish were affected by the disease at once, I now believe that there is a good chance that by quarantining the victim before it reaches death, as I have just done, the disease will finally die out, now that its trapped in the 2.5 gal.

Of course I have no proof of this, and even if the disease is gone due to personal reasons I have decided on restarting my entire 40 gal stocking plan from a community to a solo blood parrot cichlid or something alike. But after I trade in my current fish in my 40 gal I want to be absolutely sure that the disease is completely gone before introducing my new stock, whether that means emptying all of the water out, bleaching and boiling everything and restarting the entire nitrogen cycle over again, no matter how many weeks it may take. Obviously it would greatly benefit me if doing this weren't necessary, so I'm wondering, what would be the most logical thing to do after I give all of my current fish away? Someone said that according to my story, this "skinny fish disease" would go away by itself if I let the tank sit with no fish in it for a while. But then again since nobody can seem to identify the disease in general I don't know whether this disease can survive on its own either.

And in case I do need to empty everything and boil all contents of the tank, I have a few questions beforehand.

How thorough should I be cleaning the tank out before I am ready to introduce purified water into the tank and begin the nitrogen cycle? I have a thick layer of gravel as well. Should I replace all of it or could I sit and wait for it to dry out after I boil it through? Thanks.

 

[sidgolding]

Hey man,

I think boiling everything is a great idea to kill everything to be honest. By the way it sounds really strange the illness and sounds like it might be a parasite. Or if I am right something I think I have heard before but basically worms. But I'm not sure if that's just a generic name for the parasite? But boiling would be a great idea. I don't think you need to replace the gravel. Just to be double sure you can always boil it twice, or shock treat it by boiling then putting In the freezer and boiling again. That will do it lol

 

[BBradbury]

Your Tank

Hello bl...

Water problems are cleaned up by doing large, frequent water changes, doing a good job of vacuuming the bottom material and adding floating plants to help keep the tank water pure.

If you believe your tank has a parasite, then raise the temperature of the tank 10 degrees and add a couple of teaspoons of standard aquarium salt to every 5 gallons of the new, treated tap water you use for your water changes. Add these to the other duties and keep these up until you see improvement.

B

 

[Pamiam]

My 2 cents worth

I am going to be blunt here sorry...why would you give away your other fish....not knowing who or what fish the carrier of the unknown disease is? Just because fish died does not necessarily mean they were the point of origin of the disease, a healthy looking fish could carry the disease and pass it on to others. In comparison think of the story of Typhoid Mary which is what my point is. She was a carrier of typhoid, but never became sick with it.

Since you are dealing with an unknown disease, I would either keep what you have, wait several months to make sure the disease is gone, or totally buy new everything.

One year my tank became infected with hydras. After throwing out all the plants, I boiled all substrate and decor. Still had hydras. I baked everything at 400 degrees in an oven for an hour...still had hydras. I ended up throwing everything away and started with brand new everything. It was the only way I could get rid of them.

 

[jetajockey]

Did you try treating the fish with anything? Using a broad spectrum antibiotic and anti parasite medication may have made a difference, and I agree with Sid in that it sounds like it could be a parasite.

If you are in the US, sign up for this giveaway and you might get lucky. If anything it'll help you have a means to combat illness when it does pop up.

Medicated Fish Food Giveaway! - YouTube

 

[Delapool]

Just been hunting back while on the train and it looked like you had tried (can you correct where wrong)?

1) salt - couldn't see dose rate, but no difference.

2) copper safe - more for external parasites but no difference.

3) medicated anti-parasite fish food - no result as fish spat out?

4) a API general anti-parasite (?) - ingredients not listed (could you list?).

I'm guessing I've missed others? Can you list? Basically a complete list to now of meds tried would help.

Edit - also just to summarise: it looks like most suggestions are that it is internal parasites or possibly fish TB?

 

[Mebbid]

Just been hunting back while on the train and it looked like you had tried (can you correct where wrong)?

1) salt - couldn't see dose rate, but no difference.

2) copper safe - more for external parasites but no difference.

3) medicated anti-parasite fish food - no result as fish spat out?

4) a API general anti-parasite (?) - ingredients not listed (could you list?).

I'm guessing I've missed others? Can you list? Basically a complete list to now of meds tried would help.

Edit - also just to summarise: it looks like most suggestions are that it is internal parasites or possibly fish TB?

If it were fish TB I would expect to see other symptoms other than just the wasting of the fish. Loss of scales, lesions, spinal deformities are all other symptoms.

 

[Delapool]

Ok, so - something like this?

Photo of dead barb for reference:
http://www.aquariumadvice.com/forums/f12/ever-consider-restarting-your-tank-stock-310954-2.html

Disease type:
1> Internal parasites (main suspect).
2> Fish TB or bacterial but thought unlikely.
3> Not water conditions, chemicals, etc, etc.

Treatments tried:
1) Salt -> no improvement. Dose rate unknown? Was it a dip?
2) Copper Safe -> no improvement. More for external parasites. Does it work on internal parasites?
3) Medicated anti-parasite fish food -> No result as fish spat out?
4) API general cure(?) - ingredients listed but not sure this was used?
*copper sulfate
*trichlorfon
[FONT=&quot]Hydra, Lernia (Anchor Worms), Parasitic Copepods, Monodigenetic and Digenetic Flukes, Fish Lice (Argulus), Leeches.[/FONT]
*metronidazole Hole in the head disease (hexamita), chilodonella, salt water ich, bloat. Also listed for anaerobic gram positive bacteria, some protozoa (especially internal flagellates).

5> Other meds tried?

 

[Delapool]

Guess really needs further clarification from the OP.

My question is if the treatment plan could of worked? The API general cure I'm wondering if it would work on internal parasites?

 

[jlk]

Guess really needs further clarification from the OP.

My question is if the treatment plan could of worked? The API general cure I'm wondering if it would work on internal parasites?

API GC is is combination of praziquantel and metronidazole. Although it does address a very limited scope of external parasites (gill and skin flukes), it is mainly intended for internal parasites and related gram positive infections (such as the GI tract). The problem is its suggested use is not adequate to address flukes in any respect and the limited dosing schedule may or may not be effective for other internal issues. Medicated foods are the best route for treating internal parasite issues (not external).

 

[Delapool]

API GC is is combination of praziquantel and metronidazole. Although it does address a very limited scope of external parasites (gill and skin flukes), it is mainly intended for internal parasites and related gram positive infections (such as the GI tract). The problem is its suggested use is not adequate to address flukes in any respect and the limited dosing schedule may or may not be effective for other internal issues. Medicated foods are the best route for treating internal parasite issues (not external).

Thanks for this makes more sense that I was looking at the wrong product (or missed the prazi in reading). Is prazi best for internal parasites (in a medicated form)?

 

[jlk]

Thanks for this makes more sense that I was looking at the wrong product (or missed the prazi in reading). Is prazi best for internal parasites (in a medicated form)?

My fault on communication here! Metro is the more effective med for a larger spectrum of internal bugs/some protozoa/bacteria. Prazi treats flukes very effectively but it has limited scope on internal bugs (tapeworms). This is why many people that do not have access to prazi will use tapeworm meds for cats and dogs which is prazi (generally, always check ingredients). There are more specific worm meds available such as levamisole and fenbendazole.

In general, they are all the most effective when used as a medicated food except for flukes which are an external issue. Hope this makes some sense!

 

[bloodlucky]

Just an update, my apologies for not having informed you all. A very educated user private messaged me after this thread was released saying that she has read through some of my threads and suspects it may be fish TB. After doing loads of research on my own I can only say that this is most likely true. As of now we are looking into any source that may give us a positive identity. These articles provide evidence that correspond to many of the instances that have occurred in my tank. Some of the ones I can name off the top of my head just from memory are

"TB having "favorite" species which they target first, primarily barbs, danios, angelfish, other cichlids and common aquarium fish." Strangely enough barbs, danios, my young angelfish, ram, and platies were all the first to be targeted, leaving some of the luckier species like neon tetra and kuhli loaches safe (for now.)

"Fish TB is practically indestructible, and any form of aquarium medicines will most likely have no effect." As I've stated before in this very forum before even suspecting that my fish might have TB (which you can go back and check for proof) that all attempts of ridding of the disease have failed. As I've stated in either this thread or the previous one, I have tried aquarium salt, temperature changes, excessive water changes, internal parasite ridding fish flakes, coppersafe, and at least 2 other medicinal products by API.

And of course, the physical symptoms in the fish themselves. Aside from the loss of scales that aquariumcommunity.com states as one of the symptoms, everything else matches. Their stomachs cave in and they gradually become thinner and waste away until they are practically nothing.

My greatest concern, logically, is my own safety. Fish TB can be spread to humans like any other form of tuberculosis, through injuries like open wounds that are exposed to the tank water. Although I have been doing water changes in the infected tank for years with no open wounds, why would I want to continue with that risk? I'll be posting another thread regarding the follow up of how I should be handling this situation, as I'm not entirely sure what to do yet myself since I don't have a clear ID on the killer yet. Thanks for your help so far.

Wasting Disease - 6030

Mycobacterium marinum: The Fish Disease You Could Catch by Steven Pro - Reefkeeping.com

Fish Tuberculosis

 

[Delapool]

All I can think of would be to very carefully autopsy and see if any worms or TB nodules present. Maybe a vet?