Glancing angelfish but no other symptoms

[kaiofcanada]

My Panda Koi Angelfish has been glancing on things recently. I have seen him do this once or twice in the last couple of weeks. But I noticed the last day or two he seems to do it more, which has me concerned...mostly, he is rubbing/glancing off plants. I have looked closely over the last couple of weeks and he has absolutly no other symptoms except he seems to be twitching his long ventral fins occassionally today. I have never seen this bahaviour before, so I am mentioning it in case someone else has. He is eating normally,...swimming and behaving normally.

I imagine this is the sign of something to come, ...maybe internal parasite. Not sure how to treat this other than adding some aq. salt. I currently maintain my tank at 82F. Any ideas? Will salt be effective in treating internal parasite? Other suggestions for medications (NOT copper plz) that would be effective and plant safe?

The other inhabitants in this 20 gallon are 2 qt size angels, 4 otos, and a yoyo loach. I can move the yoyo to one of my other tanks for salt treatment.

I have checked the water. Everything looks good: no ammonia, nitrite:0.1ppm and nitrate:~5-10ppm. I do 20% water change every week.

 

[RazorbacksFan]

I would bump up the water changes just in case, how long has the tank been established? The nitrite is even more poisonous for the fish than ammonia, I would try to get it to zero asap.

 

[kaiofcanada]

This tank has been established for months. No new additions except a yoyo loach two weeks ago. Nothing out of the ordinary. The nitrites are actually very low and the water change is due tomorrow. Besides this glancing has now been going on for 2-3 weeks but has only recently shown an increase in frequency in the last two days in the same fish. I do not think this is about water quality tbo. This tank is next to my desk, and I watch the fish more often that I should , so I notice the little things. No other fish are showing these symptoms and the frequency of the glancing is definitely noticeable.

Of course, I will probably increase water changes in light of this, but I would like to know how one might treat internal parasites or what the pectoral twitching might be from. Any ideas?

 

[RazorbacksFan]

Nitrites should be zero in an established properly stocked tank. As far as medicines I'm not sure which would be best I'll let one of the experts field that.

 

[kaiofcanada]

I think people always say 0, but I have found if you have a good accurate kit, things are almost never really 0. As it is 0-0.1ppm is where this tank has been for months. I am not in the caution zone...Not 1ppm if that is what you read. As it is, I think my tank is not improperly stocked...or do you disagree?

Also, If it matters this tank is heavily planted.

 

[RazorbacksFan]

I think people always say 0, but I have found if you have a good accurate kit, things are almost never really 0. As it is 0-0.1ppm is where this tank has been for months. I am not in the caution zone...Not 1ppm if that is what you read. As it is, I think my tank is not improperly stocked...or do you disagree?

Also, If it matters this tank is heavily planted.

I would have to disagree in an established tank the nitrate consuming bacteria should consume the nitrite instantly as it is produced. In fact the only thing to keep the nitrafying bacteria from continuing its growth is the lack of food (nitrite). Also keep in mind the .01ppm nitrite is borderline toxic anything over that is considered toxic. As far as your tank's stocking I was not referring to it I was just saying in general but upon reading it when the angels mature I do think it will be slightly overstocked and generally angels are recommended to be kept in 30 gallons minimum.

 

[kaiofcanada]

Eventually I will upgrade to a 55, but for now, they are too young to mate and I am waiting to find a pair . I am particularly fond of the sick fish. I have my fingers crossed that it will be one that pairs up. Once they pair I will find homes for the other angels, and the lovely couple will have a home all their own.

As for those readings...I have never seen that .01ppm nitrite is borderline toxic. Care to share your reference with me. My references have suggested 1ppm is borderline toxic. I do not mean to be annoying. I am very curious. I have never used .01ppm as a caution point .

 

[RazorbacksFan]

What levels of nitrite are toxic?
Some fish are more sensitive to nitrite levels than other species and therefore it is best if the level of nitrite is maintained at zero. Any levels above 0.1mg/L should be regarded as toxic and the problem needs urgent attention.

Bio-Elite FAQ Nitrogen and Fish
I'm pretty sure if the nitrite level was 1ppm you would have some very unhealthy fish.
As far as the stocking that would be fine I figured maybe it was for pairing purposes but they would definitely be happier in a 55.

 

[kaiofcanada]

okay then I am fine. My kit has colour differences between 0-0.1 and 0.1-0.25 and so forth. My readings have not ever been different than the 0-0.1 mark since it has been cycled. I quote the higher of the range quoted for the colour bars, but perhaps that is inaccurate/misleading for this forum. I also just used some litmus sticks, which I know are not so accurate, and it reads no ammonia, no nitrites and close to 0 nitrates, similar to my liquid test readings.

Even still 0.1ppm and 0.01ppm is very different. My kit would not measure that accurately anyways. I use the API master kit and have for years. Maybe I should upgrade my kit.

Thanks for the info. Much appreciated my sleepless pal . Hopefully someone will know something about treatments tomorrow.

 

[RazorbacksFan]

okay then I am fine. My kit has colour differences between 0-0.1 and 0.1-0.25 and so forth. My readings have not ever been different than the 0-0.1 mark since it has been cycled. I quote the higher of the range quoted for the colour bars, but perhaps that is inaccurate/misleading for this forum. I also just used some litmus sticks, which I know are not so accurate, and it reads no ammonia, no nitrites and close to 0 nitrates, similar to my liquid test readings.

Even still 0.1ppm and 0.01ppm is very different. My kit would not measure that accurately anyways. I use the API master kit and have for years. Maybe I should upgrade my kit.

Thanks for the info. Much appreciated my sleepless pal . Hopefully someone will know something about treatments tomorrow.

I too use the API FW master kit and strangely my kit only goes down to .25ppm (well and 0ppm of course). You probably are fine with it I was just stating that is border line and I would feel more comfortable have it at zero to have more of a safety buffer in case things went haywire. As far as going to the high range it's better than the low range lol I was just giving you a heads up. When did .01ppm come into play? And yes that is a huge difference 10xs to be exact.

No problem hope I helped without confussing you too much I'm wiped out tonight I might not make much sense. Speaking of sleepless I just popped my ambien so hopefully I will conquer the insomnia for a bit.

 

[artgalnj]

I just wanted to jump in to give you a heads up on stocking. I have 3 angelfish also in a 20g tank. When they were given to me they were quarter-size. I knew I would eventually upgrade to a larger tank, but I put it off until about 3 weeks ago. These angelfish grew VERY quickly and now for the sake of the fish, it's not a good situation. 2 of them recently paired up and they tormented the 3rd one. So far in the last 10 days the pairing angels have spawned twice and when they're about to spawn they attacked the other angel. I put a divider up because I didn't have a seeded filter for the quarentine tank. Anyway, I'm finally moving the fish into their new home today. But trust me, they will outgrow a 20 gallon tank faster than you can imagine.

Also, if you're going to consider a 55 gallon, you might as well consider a 75 gallon. The only difference is the width of the tank front to back.

 

[kaiofcanada]

I just wanted to jump in to give you a heads up on stocking. I have 3 angelfish also in a 20g tank. When they were given to me they were quarter-size. I knew I would eventually upgrade to a larger tank, but I put it off until about 3 weeks ago. These angelfish grew VERY quickly and now for the sake of the fish, it's not a good situation. 2 of them recently paired up and they tormented the 3rd one. So far in the last 10 days the pairing angels have spawned twice and when they're about to spawn they attacked the other angel. I put a divider up because I didn't have a seeded filter for the quarentine tank. Anyway, I'm finally moving the fish into their new home today. But trust me, they will outgrow a 20 gallon tank faster than you can imagine.

Also, if you're going to consider a 55 gallon, you might as well consider a 75 gallon. The only difference is the width of the tank front to back.

Thanks for the concern. However, I am moving in less than a year (7.5 months) into larger space. I plan to get a 55 gallon then. I already have it picked out along with lighting and a stand that is being built. Right now I do not have space for a 55 gallon or another tank. I currently have 4 going. I planned for this all along when I picked these particular angels out by hand. This is why I bought them as juveniles . According to the breeder of one of my fish it is not likely that they will be breeding size/age for another year or longer, and even then I have to hope that I have a male/female that will pair. Growth and maturity in angels depends on many factors, all of which he has made me aware. I am keeping close to the guidelines for ideal fishkeeping for this: waterchange schedule, diet, temp, environment. I only refer to the Panda Koi as "he" arbitrarily. They are too young for me to even know their sex currently.

Back on topic though...anyone have ideas on what ails my fish?

 

[artgalnj]

I completely understand the whole "moving" thing. Same exact thing happened to me. We were moving into a new house, which took much longer to complete than expected. Thus why it took me so long to upgrade to a larger tank! I got my angelfish less than a year ago and they were quarter size when I got them. I just wasn't expecting them to grow so quickly and to spawn so soon.

You will appreciate the larger tank when you do eventually get it. It's a big expense upfront but once you get all of the major equipment purchased the constant spending subsides...a bit .

 

[kaiofcanada]

My Panda Koi Angelfish has been glancing on things recently. I have seen him do this once or twice in the last couple of weeks. But I noticed the last day or two he seems to do it more, which has me concerned...mostly, he is rubbing/glancing off plants. I have looked closely over the last couple of weeks and he has absolutly no other symptoms except he seems to be twitching his long ventral fins occassionally today. I have never seen this bahaviour before, so I am mentioning it in case someone else has. He is eating normally,...swimming and behaving normally.

I imagine this is the sign of something to come, ...maybe internal parasite. Not sure how to treat this other than adding some aq. salt. I currently maintain my tank at 82F. Any ideas? Will salt be effective in treating internal parasite? Other suggestions for medications (NOT copper plz) that would be effective and plant safe?

The other inhabitants in this 20 gallon are 2 qt size angels, 4 otos, and a yoyo loach. I can move the yoyo to one of my other tanks for salt treatment.

I have checked the water. Everything looks good: no ammonia, nitrite:0.1ppm and nitrate:~5-10ppm. I do 20% water change every week.

UPDATE: I have done a 25% water change and added aquarium salt to the tank after moving the yoyo loach, Mister Muggletiff, to another tank. Ammonia and nitrites: 0 and nitrates 5ppm. Temperature 82F. As of this morning, after watching everyone in the tank, I have noticed one of my other angels is twitching its dorsal fins occassionally as well and I have seen it glancing off my amazon sword leaf once. Neither of them, nor the other fish, have any other external/visible symptoms. I am thinking it might be an internal parasite, as I have not seen any white spots (ick) or dust like spots (velvet). I still have no idea what would make them twitch the dorsal fins like that. Help!

 

[spoonman]

I have always heard that when then started rubbing themselves on things that was a precurser to ick. But since that behaviour started so long ago, it might just be something that is just normal. If they are eating and swimming normal, you may be overly worried about nothing.

 

[kaiofcanada]

okay update....The fish are still a bit itchy but getting better. I finally found the culprit. I noticed this morning one of my ottos with what appeared to be healing ich sores. I have been treating the tank with salt and elevated temps with every other day water changes since I first reported. The temp is being maintained at 84F. It seems that one of the little rascals was sick. Since they hide and are always under leaves and all over, I did not notice him. And since there are four look alikes, who woulda thunk it? Little jerk. And to think I even kept him in quarantine for 3 weeks.

Everyone else seems fine now. One of the angels is still glancing only occassionally. None has sores except the otto, but at least I know where the weird twitchy itchy behaviour was coming from.

 

[kaiofcanada]

I have always heard that when then started rubbing themselves on things that was a precurser to ick. But since that behaviour started so long ago, it might just be something that is just normal. If they are eating and swimming normal, you may be overly worried about nothing.

So you were right. It was ick. I guess I was seeing the begining of it. The otto that had ick died before I could isolate him. I noticed a spike in my nitrites two nights at water tesing and could not find him but had suspicions. I did a 50% water change. I found him this morning dead. Did a vacuum and another 50% water change. Everyone else looks healthy, even the other three otos...only a few itchers in the tank now.

I am maintaining the temp at 86F. I know ich can not reprocude at temps over 86.5F I had it up around 88F but the fish seemed stressed and my black lace lost his colour. So, I lowered it back down and he is looking good again. I usually treat ich around 89F for a week and then bring it back down to 81-84, but I don't think angels like it over 86F that much. Any idea how long I should leave the tank at 86F to treat this?

Otherwise, I think I might leave the tank at 86F for a two more weeks. They seem fine at 86F and the plants are okay for now.

 

[spoonman]

Sorry for the loss. Unfortunately I am not the one to advise you about treating ick. I (knock on wood) have never had an outbreak in all the years that I have been keeping fish. Have read about alot of people doing well with the elevated temps though.

 

[kaiofcanada]

Sorry for the loss. Unfortunately I am not the one to advise you about treating ick. I (knock on wood) have never had an outbreak in all the years that I have been keeping fish. Have read about alot of people doing well with the elevated temps though.

This is actually my fish outbreak in one of my tanks too. I have rescued alot of fish from friends who give up on tank keeping and I rescue their ailing neglected fish and adopt them out. MY QT tank has gotten quite a work out over the years. I have 3 fish right now that will be going to a new home on Sunday ...three dwarf powder blue gouramis that were kept in a 5 gallon for the last 3 months. There were 4 but one was beyond my saving. I have a friend looking to stock a new 29 gallon. I have personally checked his water to be sure they don't have another doomed fate.

My guys are doing better, still no spots and only a few itches. I will just continue at 86 and wait it out . Thanks for the encouragement.

 

[FishEggs]

generally you want to continue treatment for 2 more weeks after the last sign you see. do you have an airstone in the tank? with the higher temps the water needs more aggitation for oxygenation. that might be what stress the angels more than the temps.