Goldfish problem - trouble swimming

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Satsumas

Aquarium Advice FINatic
Joined
Jan 29, 2005
Messages
610
Location
Cambridge, England (UK)
We have two fancy goldfish in a biorb fish bowl. One of them is having trouble swimming properly.
We took it out of the Biorb it was in, and now its in a shallow bowl with an airstone and some artificial plants.

The goldfish is a large, twin tailed fish with big fins.
It's not right at all, it cant get off the bottom, it moves around mostly on it's side and does respond to us when we go near.

It has no noticable blemishes, sores or grazes, and doesn't appear to be stressed all that much. It is a little bit fat, probably too fat.
We thought that it might be a digestion problem, it could be constipated, so we have been feeding it peas, which we're pretty sure it has been eating.

Could it have a swim bladder problem?

This fish has always seemed a bit dopey, occasionally swimming the wrong way, or toppling over, but this has always been fairly normal, and it would soon sort itself out.

The fish is 'pooping', but not the normal amount for a goldfish of this size (small thin amounts as opposed to great long stands!)

here are some pics:
The sick fish

http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h272/elliott_001/DSC_0002Medium.jpg

His current home
http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h272/elliott_001/DSC_0003Medium.jpg

His friend (who is in perfect health)
http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h272/elliott_001/DSC_0005Medium.jpg

Could anyone tell us what type of goldfish they are?

Any help would be great.
TIA
 
Those are Ryukins. They need at least 15 gallons per fish. They produce a lot of ammonia and an airstone won't keep them alive. In my opinion you are lucky the fish are still alive in that tank. They can eventually get up to 10". Do you test the water? The symptoms range from a nitrite problem to swim bladder disease. Since the other fish is fine it seems safe to assume it is a swim bladder problem. Grossly deformed fancy goldfish often have curved backs that become a problem since their swim bladder is in with the messed up spinal area. Feeding blanched, skinned peas regularly helps treat the symptoms. Soaking flakes and pellets before adding them to the tank also helps. Another reason this problem is arrising is possibly from the small tank. While the skeletal structure and outside of the goldfish is stunted by water quality and tank size, the organs still continue to grow. The swim bladder would then become more compressed. The small thin poop is from stress.
 
The symptom is suggestive of a swim bladder problem, which may be the result of a whole host of unrelated causes ....

Constipation is a leading cause of swim bladder compression, and feeding peas as you are doing is good for that. Alternative treatments in addition to peas:
up your water temperature to 80 - increase the metabolism & gut mobility
use epsom salt as laxative
give a salt bath to purge the fish.

Bad water (high nitrates) is the other common cause of SB problem. You really need to check your water parameters .... and as others had say, your tank is rather too small to keep large goldies in. <A bio-orb is 10 gal or so, correct?> Unless you are doing lots of pwc, you will eventually run into problems.

Some fancy golds are genetically predisposed to SB problems and can only be kept in very clean water, warmed to 80F, and fed a steady diet of fresh veggies. Look at the goldies from the top, if the spine is bent, it is likely to have SB problems.

Internal bacterial/parasite infections may also cause SB problems. If the poop is thin and white, it may point in this direction.
 
I agree with Depot. I would personally find something larger that the bowl for them and you may see much more activity from them. What are your water parameters?

Also, there looks to be almost no water in that bowl? I can't tell, but maybe giving the goldfish more room will help it swim around more.
 
Thanks for the replies.
Let me just say:
Me and my brother (Satsumas) are not the owners of these fish or the biorb.
We both have tropical aquariums that we maintain well
This biorb is our step dads, he doesnt really know much in this department and to be honest doesnt do very frequent water changes. (which is when we step in and do them).
We didn't choose these fish for the tank, but then at the time of purchase, we didn't know much about their requirements, so couldn't advise anyway.
We are both concerned about the fish.

The reason the fish is in a shollow bowl at the moment is because i read that shallow water would reduce stress on the fish since it cant get itself off the bottom.
I am at work at the moment so i cant test the water.

The reason we moved it out was because it was not swimming, it was sitting on the bottom, so i dont think it is going to do much swimming anyway, we will add some more water though anyway.

Chances of survival??

We need to get them into a bigger tank, but first we need to rescue this fish. Or would we be best getting into a big tank to help rescue the fish, and then start treating?
Im not sure weather we can get a larger tank though, thats the problem.
I understand we have got the wrong fish in the wrong tank, but it wasn't my decision, im just trying to sort out the problem as best i can.

Thanks for the help, hope we can sort this. Keep it coming!
Thanks,
David.
 
I just tested the water in the Biorb and both Ammonia and Nitrate levels are 0ppm.

In the quarantine tank which contains the sick Ryukin there were both Ammonia and Nitrate levels present. It seems to be going from bad to worse at the moment and i just done a gravel vac with a pwc to help reduce those levels.

So now it seems i have to do the filters job manually, and with a fish that is in a tiny tank for what it needs im facing a real job on my hands. Also surely if i do pwc's everyday then that will stress the fish more?

What can i actually do at the minute to help the fish?
What meds or equipment do i need?

I know he needs the temperature to be risen slightly so a heater is needed, but what else?

Thanks.
 
Frequent changes will not stress a fish more. Doing 100% changes daily in this small amount of water is one of the best things. I wouldn't get a heater. Cold water holds more oxygen, and also in a small area there is great risk of the fish being burned. Personally I'd put him back in the main tank and continue peas. If the only problem is swim bladder there is no reason to keep him in a hospital tank.
 
Ok, thanks for the reply.
So a swim bladder problem can get better? I've done a bit of reading, these fish are more prone to SB probs.

I have my eye on a tank i saw today (works neighbour), i dont think the owner will want it anymore, it's sitting in a greenhouse, all dirty. I just have to ask her weather i could buy it from her. I would estimate that it is about 25-30Gal. So this would be ideal.

We could use a small filter we have at home using some cycled sponge that we keep in one of the tropical tanks.
So hopefully, asap i can set this tank up and move the two fish into it, i must admit it would be nice to see them swimming about a bit more!

Thanks again.
 
Assuming that the SB problem is NOT due to an infection, the fish won't need QT. However, if you want to keep the fish in the current small QT setup, it is best to do a 100% water change daily. Moving the fish to clean water is less stressful than living with NH3/NO2 (as long as the water is temp match & close in pH, etc). To reduce stress even more, I wouldn't net the fish. If you set up a second plastic tub with clean water, all you need to do is scoop up the fish in a small plastic container and move him to the "clean" tub. The fish is never out of water & if done gently, no stress at all.

I'd give the peas 3-4 days to work before trying more aggressive treatment, unless the fish is showing other signs / symptoms indicating more serious problems.

Disagree on the water temp post above. Depending on your room temp, a heater is essential in treating SB. Gold fish digestive tract stops completely at temp below 50 & is rather sluggish in the 60's. Fancies tend to need temp of 75 or so to avoid SB problems. True, O2 is lower, but as long as there is enough water aggitation, there should be enough dissolved O2 (My goldies do just fine in the summer when the temp hit 80+).

It is true that in a small tub, there is more risk of O2 defecit (due to small surface area), and heater without a guard might be a problem in a small tub as well. Safest is to have your tub in a warm room (say low 70's), and keep up with the aeration. If possible, a bigger tub (larger surface area, more water so less waste accumulation) will decrease stress even more.

A 20-30 gal would be good for the 2 golds. I would have a heater in such a tank & keep the temp steady in the mid 70's.

One other thing - when you mention no ammonia or nitrates in the main tank but ammonia & nitrates in your hospital tank .... did you mean ammonia and niTRITEs? I doubt your QT would have cycled to give you nitrates (esp. in the presence of NH3) ....
 
Thanks for the reply.
At first when i looked at the fish today i thought it looked as though it scales were sticking out, but they're not. I think im just fearing the worst and have heard all sort of bad things about dropsy.

He seems ok, just carrying on the water changes and peas. He seems to be stuck on one side, he is always on his right. Although earlier he did swim a bit, and very briefly turn upright.

His body shape does appear very deformed, a very high spine. But has always had mild problems swimming, just the way he is, and he never really minded.

Still no news on the bigger tank, im getting a bit impatient, cant get hold of the owner.

Anything else we could be doing? Or just carry on as we are?

TIA
 
Believe it or not, a show quality ryukin should have an even higher spine, which means that a person breeding for show quality sees this problem even more often than a pet store supplier. Nothing else I can think of. Maybe he'll just have to live upside down.
 
Ok, things are not looking good. I think this ryukin may have dropsy. It has not improved in recent days, has been eating the peas, but it still just stuck on its side. Its scales are sticking out now, which i believe is a sure sign of dropsy??
Is there anything i can do? Im very concerned now, i dont want to put the fish through any more suffering if i cannot save it.
What should/can i do to save it? How long do fish normally last with dropsy?

Here is a picture of the fish, it was hard to get a good pic as it is sitting in the corner, but it shows the scales.

http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h272/elliott_001/DSC_0008.jpg

Any help is greatly appreciated.
TIA.

edit - just to add, the fish is still eating well and has not lost colour. He seems normal, just cant swim properly and does appear a bit swolen.
 
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