help... long story.

[saltyaz]

help... long story. survivors of ich die-off in jeopardy...? re-cycle? ammonia?

Hello,

I know I didn't introduce myself or fill out my profile, but I'm kind of desperate for advice and have a ton of questions, and google isn't exactly answering them. I've often referred to this site and decided to sign up in the hopes of having some things cleared up.

Here's my situation/ongoing horror story. I'll explain it as chronologically as I can, because I undoubtedly made multiple mistakes in this process and would like to learn from them, but I kind of need them clarified so I'm not just guessing. Bear with me while I explain everything as it happened.

About a month ago I stocked a cycled 10g tank with a healthy looking 'king' betta (from petco), and two kuhli loaches + two albino cories from a LFS that I thought was really neat and impressive. My setup also contained some patches of dwarf grass, some taller grass, a couple anubias, a java fern, a peace lily suspended above with roots in the water, a piece of driftwood, and of course hiding places all over the bottom. Substrate of aquarium sand mixed with smooth glass-like aquarium gravel. Aqueon quietflow filter, heater set to 78, and small air stone. I was proud of my setup. Everyone was super happy, very entertaining and playful; the betta never bothered anyone and loved hanging out in the lily roots, the kuhlis were out and about often, the cories loved swimming in the bubbles and filter current, crystal clear water, etc...

So, since everything had been great for about two weeks, I went back to the LFS, half on a whim and half to just wander around and look at the fish, and I asked the guy who had advised me from the get-go if there were any other mid-level swimming fish I could safely add to brighten up the tank. He proceeded to tell me I could put in way more fish, and assured me that he had a 5g at home with 6 neon tetras, a betta, and several catfish. When I decided to go with four neon tetras and a zebra loach, he encouraged me instead to go with five tetras and two more cories (spotted). I must have asked if this would really be okay about a dozen times, but he seemed so confident that in the end I took his word. I brought the six new fish home, acclimated them to the tank water, but didn't quarantine.

Within 36 hours, all the tetras were dead and the rest of the fish super stressed out; the betta and loaches basically looked dead, but would swim when disturbed. I don't need to tell you how it felt to wake up to that...

I called the store to explain what happened and ask 'what now'. I spoke to someone different than the guy who sold me the fish, and they told me that they would have never advised me to put that many fish in that size tank, let alone so quickly, and that stress and an ammonia spike killed them. (You can imagine my frustration and disappointment at the thought that had I just spoken to someone more knowledgeable, this could have been avoided.)

So. I did a 4g water change and brought a sample to the LFS to be tested, and they said the parameters were great, and advised me to do a few more small water changes and just keep an eye on the remaining fish, that they were probably just stressed.

Within a few days, everybody has a super thick slime coat. like, visibly thick. One evening, ich spots appeared on several fish and they basically all looked on the brink of death; hovering at the bottom, on their sides half the time, not eating, etc, ...all EXCEPT for the two tiny albino cories, who seemed to be their totally normal selves, voracious, active, playing, etc... my reaction was that they must not be sick yet, so, thinking I was doing the right thing and desperate not to lose more fish, I took those two out and put them in a temporary 3g setup so I could try to treat the main tank without harming them or having them in with what I assumed were dying fish.
(*a note on the quarantine tank--I set it up when things started going wrong, with a tiny tetra whisper filter, some fresh gravel, and about 10% of the main tank water in with new water, some grass... I knew it wouldn't be cycled or suitable for long term but just wanted to have an emergency backup)

Okay. so THEN, I started treating the 10g, with betta, two cories, and loaches, for ich. After sifting through the endless mixed opinions on the internet and not really feeling enlightened, I formulated a treatment plan, though I didn't have much hope and was convinced I was just going to end up killing them I did a water change of a few gallons, slowly raised the tank temp to 82, added a larger air stone, added 1 tbsp of aquarium salt, and began dosing with Kordon Ich Attack, which their site said was safe for loaches. The kuhli loaches turned translucent and died after a day (they were the worst off from the start), but suprisingly, everyone else began to improve a little. Within three-ish days, they didn't look like they were on the brink of death anymore; still somewhat groggy, but at least eating again, and NO MORE ich spots! But they really didn't perk back up to their old selves.

At this point, I called the LFS to explain everything so far, and see if they had any further suggestions. They told me that I was completely wrong to remove the two healthy cories because they were probably carrying the ich anyway and that when I re-introduced them I would re-infect the whole tank again. They told me to put them back, bring the temperature back down to normal because the heat was too dangerous, and simply continue the ich treatment with meds and salt for a few more weeks. So, yesterday I did a 50% water change, made sure it was at 78, dosed with kordon, re-salted with just over a tsp, and put the two cories BACK in.

Today when I woke up, it was a nightmare all over again. The betta was hiding in a bottom corner and his face has gone from blu-black to pale gray, his eyes are clouded (but NOT bulging), the cories wouldn't leave the surface and were totally spazzing. Thinking these were signs of bad water parameters from putting the two cories back in, I did an immediate 3g change and everyone seemed visibly more comfortable. After a few hours the behavior was back though, so I did another 5g water change, did the first kordon dose that day, and replaced the tsp salt. Unfortunately I had to be gone most of the day so didn't get to monitor them very closely, but upon returning, noticed everyone seemed stressed out, but not *quite* as bad as this morning.


So now......

I have so many questions and concerns, and am pretty wary of effing everything up again, but it seems like if I keep treating the tank the same way, I might end up killing them.

My personal current hypothesis is an ammonia spike (I didn't get home early enough to take a sample to be tested, and don't have kit at home) because the symptoms are similar to those just before the first big die-off; also, the betta's eyes and head might be ammonia burned, and the cories seem red around the gills and front fins. But.... it's only five fish in a 10g...? Why the sudden ammonia? Is the ich treatment --god forbid-- killing off my good bacteria and sending the tank into a re-cycle? Is everyone just so stressed they can't handle it? Could the betta's eyes (again, not bulging--the cloudiness looks almost like cataracts and doesn't cover the whole eye, nor seem to be anything growing on the surface) be a symptom of something else--another parasite or bacterial infection? I don't think there's an oxygen issue, with all the plants and air stone... the filter makes a pretty big splash too. Another thing about the filter--I read mixed opinions about whether charcoal in a cycled filter will actually remove meds from the water or not, and in mine the charcoal is enclosed inside the filter media, so I left it, also being afraid that ripping open the mesh and removing charcoal would cause an ammonia spike...

Also, the longer grasses died soon after the big die-off and the java fern is looking yucky now too; is this because of the ich treatment? will the other plants be affected?

.... do I just need to keep doing alot of water changes? will excessive water changes contribute to the good bacteria/tank cycle collapsing? is it worth it to buy an ammonia neutralizer to temporarily help things stabilize? or some 'bottled bacteria'? aren't more chemicals just going to stress the fish worse? how can I tell if my tank is re-cycling? thankfully I don't see any ich spots, but I know that doesn't mean it's eradicated so I have to keep treating, but should I change my treatment? Should I use something else now that I don't have to worry about loaches? I'm so hesitant to change anything because the fish seem pretty fragile right now, with all they've been through so recently... but I'm wondering if anyone has an idea from this description what's happening in the tank right now and what I should do. I reeeally don't want another ammonia poisoning die off, obviously. (if in fact it was ammonia and overcrowding the first time, and not just sick tetras who made all my other fish sick and stressed...)

really, my biggest fear is that the tank is re-cycling and not keeping the ammonia down, and I don't think the already weakened fish will survive it. what do you think? how can I tell?

well, okay... so on a side note, while I definitely want some specific advice on how to proceed right now, I also want to evaluate the bigger picture here so I can come out of this a little less confused. here are the places where I think, based on research and experience, I went wrong throughout:
-buying a fish from petco (may have brought the ich? I don't know?)
-taking the advice of the LFS employee who was clearly just trying to sell me as many fish as possible, instead of listening to my doubts
-buying neon tetras for a young tank
-not quarantining the new fish
-removing the cories after the die-off and reintroducing them days later
-....what else? please tell me.

This whole process has been an exercise in trying to sift through tons of totally subjective information and pick out what applies to my situation, and learning what to take with a grain of salt.

If you got all the way down here, thank you a million times over for your patience. And thank you in advance to anyone and everyone who replies.

 

[saltyaz]

few details to add:

-been using a water conditioner with stress coat/immune boost in any new tap water
-betta has gone nearly black minus the pale face (was brilliant green-red-blue)
-feeding a rotating variety of flakes, sinking pellets, and freeze dried bloodworms (though fasted them for a couple days while no one was eating so as not to pollute tank)
-always rinse hands before interacting with water, but not with soap
-sometimes when I walk into the room the cories FREAK out, and dart around like someone lit a match under their tails. is my presence stressing them?

 

[ImACoolguy]

I'm just going to say that's the longest initial comment I think I've ever read on here lol.


On to your crisis..

Let's break it down. You have 2 major problems going on right now.

1. An Uncycled tank- if I read correctly, this tank has only been up a few weeks. Cycling a tank properly(not how many stores tell you)takes around 3-6 weeks. This has undoubtedly led to your ammonia spikes.

2. Ich- this is one of the easiest diseases to treat thankfully but it's very common to bring home from the store and I think you get the idea that quarantine is definitely not something you want to skip


So how do we deal with these issues?

For one, your LFS indeed was right about the cories. When it comes to ich, once you can see it, it's too late. The whole tank now is infected.

I would recommend the heat method. Slowly turn up your heater (1-2 degrees every 45-60 minutes) till you reach 86 degrees.

No more salt or meds for this method.

What the heat treatment does is speed up the life cycle of ich. It's going to look worse before it gets better.

The reason your plants are dying is because many are intolerant to salt in the water that and different plants have different needs. Some are easy, some are very hard. Your "grassy" plant is like Dwarf Hairgrass. This is up in the category for hard plants to grow and thrive. On the other end, Anubias and Java Fern are great for beginners.

Alright that covers ich... Now let's cover how to properly cycle a tank. I use this for social media.. I read a novel now you read a novel lol.

What is cycling? Cycling is short the Nitrogen Cycle. Basically, bacteria live in your tank, they are what consumes waste so it doesn't become toxic and harm your fish. But your filter does not just "come with bacteria" right out of the box! This is where cycling comes in.

Why is cycling important? Many people have said "well I didn't cycle and my fish are just fine!" Well that's because most of those people have very hardy fish like bettas, guppies, etc, they can rough it through a cycle without issue.

Where does bacteria live? Let's make this really simple: 97%=filter 2%=substrate 1% water, decor, and plants. Basically, your filter is the home of all the bacteria you care about.

Where does bacteria come from and how do I grow it? This is the miracle of nature and science. I can't tell you specifically "where" bacteria comes from, only because I don't know. What I do now is how to grow bacteria, otherwise known is cycling a tank.

What you need to cycle a tank:
1. LIQUID test kit- I will stress this till the day I die. Test strips are junk. Liquid looks expensive but in reality you save a bunch of money because it can do 200+ tests for $10 more than a 25 pack of strips. I mean who wouldn't snag that deal?? You MUST have a test kit that you can get actual numbers from or else cycling will be near impossible without trips to the store for them to do it.

2. An ammonia source. This can be produced in a variety of ways. Fish obviously is the first method, this is the path of FISH-IN cycling. Simple right? Other sources include 10% grade ammonia from the hardware store, this is only a couple bucks. You can use uncooked shrimp from the grocery store and put it in a pantyhose so it doesn't make a mess. Or plain fish food is fine too but not as effective sometimes. These sources are used for a FISHLESS cycle.

Why do we need an ammonia source? This is what begins cycling. Ammonia is what feeds your bacteria to where they can reproduce and allows you to continue through the nitrogen cycle.

Enough questions let's get on with it:

Fishless cycling: this is really easy method, but you have an empty tank. On the flip side, you can do whatever adjustments you want to it so when you get fish it's perfect. If you are dosing ammonia by the bottle: shoot for 3ppm-4ppm. Google can provide a dosing calculator so you can know just how much to dose for your tank size. If you are using a table shrimp, just throw it in, it will naturally boost the ammonia and you just add a new shrimp when the other has decomposed. Now you want to use your test kit to measure how much ammonia you need to dose, it's simple math once you know how much makes 3ppm.

Fish-in cycling: This is where it can get tricky. Because you have fish you need to keep them safe. During a cycle, this will require daily testing and quite possibly daily water changes. You want to keep ammonia under 1ppm and nitrite under 0.50ppm if possible as both are highly toxic to fish.

Both cycles: in the beginning you will see ammonia start to rise, over time, the bacteria will overcome this and in a fishless you will need to start dosing daily(bottled ammonia) as time goes on. From there you will move to nitrites. Once you hit nitrites this is the longest phase. One day you will wake up and nitrites will be gone and you will be left with nitrAtes. Nitrates is the final product of the nitrogen cycle and is non toxic in lower levels. This is then removed through your weekly water changes.

Once the cycle is completed you should not see any signs on ammonia and nitrites, because now your tank is cycled.

Bacterial supplements: please understand these are a game of chance. They don't always work, sometimes they do nothing. Just know, I have NEVER seen one of these fully complete a cycle, only give a jump start. Please keep that in mind that just because you dump a bottle in doesn't mean your tank cycled..



I hope this helped clear some things up for you. Feel free to ask more questions I'd be happy to help. And last but not least, welcome to AA


Caleb

 

[saltyaz]

okay... just saw the sticky. will answer these as best I can, if I didn't already explain in the post.

2~What are your tank parameters (ammonia, nitrites, nitrates, temp, pH)? Please give exact values.
...can't say unfortunately. will have to get tested tomorrow.

3~ How large is the tank? How long has the tank been set up?
10g, sat empty for 3 wks, had water tested and LFS told me it was cycled, has had fish in it for a month. so a month and a half total including original cycle time.

4~What type of filtration are you using? Please give the name and number (i.e. Fluval 304) and amount of gph if known.
Aqueon quietflow 10, 100gph

5~How many fish are in the tank? What kinds of fish are they and what are their current sizes?
five-- one 'king' betta (though he looks like a big plakat to me), roughly 2"
two albino cories about 1"
two spotted cories about 1.5"

6~When is the last time you did a water change and vacuum the gravel? How often do you do this? How much water do you remove at a time?

Last water change was this afternoon, using siphon tube. because I have 3/4 sand substrate, generally don't vaccuum. Usually stir up the surface LIGHTLY by waving the siphon around a little, then suck up the debris. see post for specific amounts.

7~How long have you had the fish? If the fish is new, how did you acclimate it/them?
had the fish about 2 weeks. acclimated by floating bag for hour or two, then clipping bag to tank and slowly adding tank water to it (but not bag water to tank), then dumping some out and adding tank water until bag was all tank water, then netting fish and transferring to tank

8~Have you added anything new to the tank--decor, new dechlorinator, new substrate, etc.?
nothing new added since first couple days of initial setup; over 3 wks ago

 

[ImACoolguy]

2~What are your tank parameters (ammonia, nitrites, nitrates, temp, pH)? Please give exact values.
...can't say unfortunately. will have to get tested tomorrow.

3~ How large is the tank? How long has the tank been set up?
10g, sat empty for 3 wks, had water tested and LFS told me it was cycled, has had fish in it for a month. so a month and a half total including original cycle time.

This right here was your downfall mate. Misguided by the store...

A tank just sitting empty is... A tank just sitting empty. It sat there for 3 weeks and did nothing. Of course the water tested fine because it sat empty lol.

Follow that guide above and get you a liquid test kit. I'd be doing daily water changes and vacuuming to help remove the free floating ich and keep levels stable through the cycle.


Caleb

 

[nerdelish]

I'm a newbie fish keeper so I don't know much but I know there are plenty here at AA with more experience that are likely to be able to help you. You've come to the right place.

That being said, I would recommend getting a liquid test kit ASAP. It's hard to rule out water parameter problems if you can't test frequently.

Based on this answer in your post above:
"10g, sat empty for 3 wks, had water tested and LFS told me it was cycled, has had fish in it for a month. so a month and a half total including original cycle time."

My guess initially would be that an uncycled tank is part of the problem. Did you add any ammonia source during those three weeks to cycle the tank?

 

[nerdelish]

I just saw Caleb is on the case.

 

[saltyaz]

Thank you so much for your reply! yeah... I know it was really really long... I just thought more details would add to a speedier answer

I am now realizing that my cycle probably wasn't complete when I added the fish, despite LFS reassurances. I don't think I trust that particular store very much anymore.

*just to clarify... the tank wasn't *totally* empty, it had plants and decorations, but no ammonia source I guess*

One think I'm confused about, though, is why was everything grand for a few weeks with the original five fish, despite (apparently) not being cycled? did adding more simply overload everything and throw it out of whack? I've read about meds killing off good bacteria--is this a factor, or simply incorrect?

Also, just need some clarification, how exactly does the heat kill off the ich without salt or meds? if it speeds up the cycle, isn't it just going to re-flourish with a vengeance in my tank? and with the fish already pretty weakened AND having to withstand an 8 degree temp change AND a fish-in cycle, won't they be even more vulnerable without salt/meds? The LFS also told me that high temp would harm them and a slower steadier treatment would be better--were they wrong about this? am I being a wimp about how tough my fish are? (I don't feel like I am, considering all their recent issues, but clearly I just don't know! )

will the dying plants affect the water? I pick out the dead pieces daily but I mean if the plant is in the process of dying will it throw anything off?

also, if I were to try 'bottle bacteria' to jump start the cycle and it DIDN'T work, which I know is a very strong possibility, would it actually do any harm? is it a low-risk gamble, or a risk not worth taking?

 

[ImACoolguy]

Thank you so much for your reply! yeah... I know it was really really long... I just thought more details would add to a speedier answer

I am now realizing that my cycle probably wasn't complete when I added the fish, despite LFS reassurances. I don't think I trust that particular store very much anymore.

*just to clarify... the tank wasn't *totally* empty, it had plants and decorations, but no ammonia source I guess*

One think I'm confused about, though, is why was everything grand for a few weeks with the original five fish, despite (apparently) not being cycled? did adding more simply overload everything and throw it out of whack? I've read about meds killing off good bacteria--is this a factor, or simply incorrect?

Also, just need some clarification, how exactly does the heat kill off the ich without salt or meds? if it speeds up the cycle, isn't it just going to re-flourish with a vengeance in my tank? and with the fish already pretty weakened AND having to withstand an 8 degree temp change AND a fish-in cycle, won't they be even more vulnerable without salt/meds? The LFS also told me that high temp would harm them and a slower steadier treatment would be better--were they wrong about this? am I being a wimp about how tough my fish are? (I don't feel like I am, considering all their recent issues, but clearly I just don't know! )

will the dying plants affect the water? I pick out the dead pieces daily but I mean if the plant is in the process of dying will it throw anything off?

Very good questions

YOU CAN use the medication route... I just take preference to heat. Heat will speed them through their life cycle and they will die. Many users on here myself included prefer heat treatment for ich instead of meds.

Salt is a natural stressor(is stresses the fish) that builds up slime coat making fish more resilient to fight infection. Salt concentration will also help kill off the ich. You have choice to make though, use salt and further damage plants, or not and try to preserve your plants.

Under most circumstances meds will not kill your bacteria, this is also why it's important you follow directions on medications to the point.

Regardless I would do water changes as often as possible to keep water as clean as you can. This may be altered by medication as some require 2 doses before the water change, again follow instructions.

As long as you are removing dead leaves/plants from the tank I wouldn't worry about the planes right now.


Caleb

 

[RedDevil83]

You shouldn't trust most lfs seems like they always get around to just money and not the well being of your fish

Sent from my SM-G360T1 using Aquarium Advice mobile app

 

[ImACoolguy]

Oh and considering you didn't test your water that first few weeks of owning fish I can only assume they were toughing it out for you bettas are pretty hardy fish.

Cycling will happen regardless if you know it or not.


Caleb

 

[RedDevil83]

I never wipe the bottom of the tank I just suck up all the poo and uneaten food and clean everything else, op should keep in mind that all the bb is good for the tank.

Sent from my SM-G360T1 using Aquarium Advice mobile app

 

[Delapool]

Really agree on getting a test kit as well. The API freshwater master test kit covers ph as well. The test instructions are pretty easy once done a few times

 

[absolutangel04]

Well, that is an unfortunate beginning to the hobby! I am sorry you had a rough start. If you ask around, you will find that MANY fish keepers had a rough start. Bad advice abounds, and it can be hard to filter through to find the good stuff when you are new and don't know what to look for. We are here to help you.
A few notes. First, after fish have died in a situation like that, it is really difficult to say exactly what killed them, so try not to dwell on it too much. That was a lot of fish for that space, so it could be an ammonia spike, it could be the stock, it could be stress, it could be they had something when you got them and their compromised immune systems couldn't handle the sudden spike of ammonia. Who knows. Ammonia is a likely culprit in a situation like this, I am just saying there are multiple things that can go wrong and stack on each other.
If you want to use meds, you will need to remove the carbon that is likely in your filter. It binds to the meds and pulls them from your water (to put it simply). Yes, many meds will kill of your beneficial bacteria colony, but it depends on the individual med to answer that more fully. The choice to treat ich with heat/salt versus meds is always up to you. I used to do only heat/salt, but have now taken to doing meds because it goes faster. Both can have side effects, both can result in the loss of fish. I have used Ich Attack with loaches and have never had a problem. One downside to it, it is a fairly slow treatment. If administered in the right dosage though, it should not have killed your loaches.
Ammonia is put into the water through the decomposition of uneaten food, and from fish poop. When you first put in fish, there is not any ammonia to speak of. It takes time to build up. Also, ammonia is only toxic at certain levels. The specifics of that depends on temperature and pH. It takes time to get the build up to be toxic. Also, many fish are able to cope with temporary and slow build up and ammonia pretty well. That is part of why there are so many fish that live through nasty ammonia levels in ill kept tanks across the world. If a newer fish however is dropped into high levels rather than part of the gradual build up, they cannot cope as well.
What else do need help with, and what questions do you still need answered. There are a lot of long responses here, so I want to make sure we cover everything you are asking about. Also, if there anything you need more clarification on, feel free to ask. I am linking you an article about fish in cycling, since you already have fish.
http://www.aquariumadvice.com/forums/f12/fish-in-cycling-step-over-into-the-dark-side-176446.html
Also, our basic getting started link:
http://www.aquariumadvice.com/forums/f15/guide-to-starting-a-freshwater-aquarium-186089.html
I am aware that the getting started link is in favor of the fishless cycle. Many people are, but both methods can easily be done well and without harming any fish.

 

[saltyaz]

thanks.... aaand new betta symptoms

Thanks so much, everyone. I would like to respond more specifically but at the moment I only have a few minutes here ...

I wanted to ask about new symptoms in the betta. he's now definitely rubbing on everything in the tank but has NO new ich spots, and whereas his eyes merely had cloudy spots before, now there is white stuff physically growing ON the surface of them. They are still not protruding but look kind of scaled over, but it also looks like an additional protruding growth, like a large grain of sand, on each. I had to net him against the glass for a minute to get a closer look and a picture, and these growths actually fell off in the process. and his face is so much more pale. he also has a skinny black ring around the outside of his tail, but I haven't noticed fin shrinking, and can't say for sure whether this was always there or not. the other newest thing is intermittent heavy breathing with the gills protruding, and they are suuuuper dark. he's always been a dark colored fish anyway, but the part of the gills I can see are very deep purple/almost black.

All of these things seem like, from what I've been able to read, symptoms that crossover a variety of problems...

any specific ideas? is it bacteria? some form of columnaris? fin rot? ich coming back? (but why only eyes?)
if it's columnaris, should I isolate him? (I learned my lesson about that regarding ich... but is it different in this case?)

the cories seem fine, and no one is gasping at the surface anymore. been doing 25-30% water changes daily and keeping up with aforementioned ich treatment. (I decided not to change it yet)

 

[absolutangel04]

Without pictures, it is hard to say. With so much going on, it might be a combo of everything.
Inflamed gills are likely from the water parameters in my opinion. That can be from ammonia or nitrate poisoning.
What have you been keeping your temperature at? When was our last water change? What are you currently doing to combat the ich?
Was it fungus on the eyes? Velvet?
My first guess from the symptoms is that the betta has some sort of bacterial/fungal infection. From the description, I suggest antibiotics. Bluntly, it may not work. That will depend on how sick the betta actually is and how strong he is to be able to heal.

EDIT: apologies, I saw you are doing daily water changes right now.

 

[saltyaz]

my first thought was fungus/bacteria too, as a secondary illness caused by all the stress etc previously discussed... but like I said, I don't know how to identify it and can't find a picture matching what I saw. The weirdest thing was the small growth on the outside of the eyes that literally fell off while he was bumping around in the net. does that sound like fungus...? a parasite?

I couldn't get any photos of the growth (because it fell off) but here's the best I could get of his face coloring and cloudy eyes. in one of them you can also make out the black on the tail.

 

[ImACoolguy]

Cloudy eye, most commonly caused by poor water quality. But is not limited to that.


Caleb

 

[absolutangel04]

Yeah, it still sounds like a fungal/bacterial combo sort of thing. The clouded eyes can be from a bacterial infection, commonly caused by water quality issues.
It is your fish, if you want to try heat and salt for your ich plus the potential improvement of the bacterial issues, you can. Otherwise, you are looking at multiple meds. Either is going to be stressful on the fish, unfortunately. The black on the tail suggests the beginning of fin rot as well. It is a good sign that his fins are not clamped, so keep in mind that he might still have plenty of fight in him. He actually looks better than I thought he would.
Could you please remind me of which fish you have in the tank right now? Is it just cories and the betta?

 

[saltyaz]

caleb--even with the opaque external growth that fell off? is that part of cloudy eye? that's what's throwing me off. I definitely saw it and watched it come off. I wish I had a picture of it.

angel04--yes, just the betta and four cories. I'm pretty suprised at his condition too, just don't want to let him slide backwards or indavertently send him in that direction... I guess I don't think multiple meds would be a good idea unless I'm positive it's serious fungus or infection that needs serious treatment... but I know it's also a risk to wait and see and that things caught early are easier dealt with. so it's a tough call.