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Old 01-22-2004, 07:51 AM   #1
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Ich!!! I am going loose it!!!

I have almost no hair left in my head, from pulling it out. I have about had it with ICH! I have been a good boy and done everything people on this forum have told me to do or I have read. Temp has been at 86 for days, salt added and yet more spots and more fish seem to be getting it. My Clown loaches seem to be getting it near their gills I have been doing water changes and vacuuming the bottom. I have not used meds, because I have been told here that it may kill my fish. Someone told that Ich needs light and that I should cover up the tank for a few days, yet someone else here told me that it did not matter.
Oh please help me....I really like my fish but I am at the end of my rope.
P.S. One of my fish has a white mark, not a dot on it's tail fin that looks like a 1/16th of an inch white line, like a worm like mark. Is this still ich?
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20 Gallon Rectangle tank, 304 Fluval filter:
1Rosy Tetra, 1 Black Molly
1 Platy, 1 Blue Tail Guppy
2 Blue Tetras, 2 Angelfish, 2 clown loaches,
1 Tail-Light Tetra,
2 Otocinclus, 1 Glass cat fish

15 Gallon -1 Fancy Guppies - 15 Guppy Fry
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Old 01-22-2004, 07:58 AM   #2
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Ugh. What a pain.

Lets see what we can do. First off, are you sure the temp is 86F? Have you verified it with a thermometer (sometimes the heaters are off a couple of degrees). When I treat ich, I hike them temps up to 88F; maybe that will make a difference. Do know there is a strain of ich which can survive temps up to 90F; lets hope thats not whats in your tank!

How much salt did you add? The water must have a specific gravity of at least 1.002 for salt to be effective.

How long have you been using the temp treatment? Takes about 5 days before seeing any reduction in the parasites on the fish.

With meds one needs to be careful; most ich meds are poisons and the thought is it will kill the ich before it kills the fish. It also mucks up the bacterial colonies. Sometimes tho, its the chance one must take to eradicate it.
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Old 01-22-2004, 08:00 AM   #3
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When I got ich, I hiked the temp to 90degrees and ran a second HOB filter for additional surface aggitation/airation.
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Old 01-22-2004, 10:23 AM   #4
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Temp is 86.5 verified with 2 thermometer. Salt has been in tank for a couple weeks, made an error and put 1 TEASPOON instead of a Tablespoon per 5 gallons of water, a week ago I added some more salt to correct problem. Am I suppose to add the salt slowly or all at once? Also the LFS lady told me that my fish have ich because they are stressed and that if they were not they would not have the ich. I thought once you got Ich, and didn't get rid of it, all your fish would get in sooner or later. Anyway when I told her that I had a Fluval 304 with a disbursment bar (to slow it down a little) she said that my filter was stressing my fish out. I don't know how crediable she is. I would tend to pay attention to anything Alli has to say though (nemokeeper bows to Allivymar, who is all knowing and wise )
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20 Gallon Rectangle tank, 304 Fluval filter:
1Rosy Tetra, 1 Black Molly
1 Platy, 1 Blue Tail Guppy
2 Blue Tetras, 2 Angelfish, 2 clown loaches,
1 Tail-Light Tetra,
2 Otocinclus, 1 Glass cat fish

15 Gallon -1 Fancy Guppies - 15 Guppy Fry
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Old 01-22-2004, 10:52 AM   #5
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Yea, Alli is Queen of the hill. lol, Even if the filter is stressing out the fish (My opinion, yea right) the high temps should take care of it. I do know with the temp treatment it tends to get a little worse before it gets better. I had one Serpa Tetra that was almost white with spots by the time the heat treatment started working. HTH.
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Old 01-22-2004, 10:55 AM   #6
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Your lfs lady isn't very bright. Ick is a parasite.. Just as with any of animal or even humans, you can be perfectly healthy and unstressed, and still end up sick sooner or later. Do you have to be stressed to catch a cold? Not really.

Same thing here. Your fish are stressed cause they have ick, not your filter. I'd follow Ali's suggestion and raise the temp another 2-4 degrees. The salt sounds like you're fine for now.
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Old 01-22-2004, 11:10 AM   #7
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I have updated my fish and invert list on my signature, any problem you think with too high temp issues with my gang? Most info I see for temp range for most of my fish seem to max out at 78 deg., other than the loaches. (Nemokeeper thinks if he had a bigger tank he will soon be able to use it as a Hot tub too. )
Oh and what about turning off lights to help stop ich, or is that some more bs from the lfs lady?
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20 Gallon Rectangle tank, 304 Fluval filter:
1Rosy Tetra, 1 Black Molly
1 Platy, 1 Blue Tail Guppy
2 Blue Tetras, 2 Angelfish, 2 clown loaches,
1 Tail-Light Tetra,
2 Otocinclus, 1 Glass cat fish

15 Gallon -1 Fancy Guppies - 15 Guppy Fry
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Old 01-22-2004, 11:18 AM   #8
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Looking at your occupants I don't think heat will be a problem, but unless I am mistaken you are very overstocked. That being the case what are your levels? May have something there.
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Old 01-22-2004, 12:09 PM   #9
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My ammonia is 0, Nitrite 0, Nitrate- just a trace, All my fish are pretty small, I know as they grow I will be overstocked for sure, but I plan on moving them to another tank as they grow. I don't have a problem ever with my water quality levels, and have not lost a fish yet (knock on wood). Although the problem with Ich may be an indication Its hard to figure your limit for fish. I have heard the rule of 1 inch per gallon of water, but there is a big difference between a 1 inch little fish and a 1 inch on a bigger fish. I will try and post a picture to help show the room or lack of room.
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20 Gallon Rectangle tank, 304 Fluval filter:
1Rosy Tetra, 1 Black Molly
1 Platy, 1 Blue Tail Guppy
2 Blue Tetras, 2 Angelfish, 2 clown loaches,
1 Tail-Light Tetra,
2 Otocinclus, 1 Glass cat fish

15 Gallon -1 Fancy Guppies - 15 Guppy Fry
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Old 01-22-2004, 12:24 PM   #10
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Pics of tank

Here is are some photos of my tank. To me they don't look crowded, but what do I know, I have only been at this a month and a half. Some fish in behind drift wood, lots of cover under and behind it. What do you think?
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20 Gallon Rectangle tank, 304 Fluval filter:
1Rosy Tetra, 1 Black Molly
1 Platy, 1 Blue Tail Guppy
2 Blue Tetras, 2 Angelfish, 2 clown loaches,
1 Tail-Light Tetra,
2 Otocinclus, 1 Glass cat fish

15 Gallon -1 Fancy Guppies - 15 Guppy Fry
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Old 01-22-2004, 01:44 PM   #11
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Cool, Just do what Alli said and raise the temp another couple and wait it out, I keep mine around 14 days @86 to make sure.
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Old 01-22-2004, 07:48 PM   #12
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Ok; you all are embarassing the hell outa me LOL

Lets see:

Temps look fine. How long have you been using the high temp treatment? I'd kick things up to at least 88F and see if it makes a diff before going to meds. Your fish should be fine; know angels need a higher temp anyway (around 82F is a much better temp; 78F is a bit low for em).

What is the salt levels in the tank? It must be 1.002 SG minimum to be effective; the first time I used the salt treatment I had my tank at 1.003 SG. It works out to be around 7.6 grams of salt per gallon. Thing is, each salt product contains different levels of chloride; this is why you HAVE to measure it with a hydrometer to be sure. If its less then 1.002 SG then its useless. It worked out to be around 1/4 cup of salt per 10g in my tank (its a LOT more salt then you may think), but it may be more or less for you depending on the salt you are using. I raised it 1.001 SG per day so as not to stress the fish, and used the hydrometer to be sure I wasn't raising it any higher per day.

I doubt your filter is stressing out your fish, especially with the disbursement bar. The overcrowding definitely is tho; even if the fish are small, its a LOT of fish for that size tank. That 1 inch = 1 gallon thing is a crock. It doesn't take into account body mass, impact on bioload, territorial needs or space to move needs. I'm sure its the territory issue thats rearing its head the most in your case, although its not only that.

The lfs lady is right when she says stress can kick off ich. IF ich is in the tank (if any fish has a subclinical case) stress can cause the fish to have a depressed immune system. A fish with a depressed immune system is susceptible to disease, and cannot fight off ich easily.

Keep us updated!
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Old 01-22-2004, 08:24 PM   #13
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Ich problem

High temps for a week now. Salt not sure due to water changes, will buy hydrometer. Will thin tank out as soon as I get another. When I first added the salt, I did it all at once.
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20 Gallon Rectangle tank, 304 Fluval filter:
1Rosy Tetra, 1 Black Molly
1 Platy, 1 Blue Tail Guppy
2 Blue Tetras, 2 Angelfish, 2 clown loaches,
1 Tail-Light Tetra,
2 Otocinclus, 1 Glass cat fish

15 Gallon -1 Fancy Guppies - 15 Guppy Fry
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Old 01-24-2004, 09:25 AM   #14
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Ok I can see the light at the end of the tunnel. My loaches have lost most of their white spots. Looks like they are on the mend. I will continue with the heat treatment. Thanks all! P.S. Alli, I almost had to tackle the LFS lady to the ground to purchase a Hydrometer. She insisted that I did not need it. And when I told her that my friends on this site told me to get one. She said we had too much time on our hands... ... I cringe everytime I go in and see her working. I think she thinks I am spending her money.. It's good she gives her opinion, but thats where it should end. I finally told her that I wanted it , because I like to have all the toys and that she should humour me... What would the manager think of her sales approach.
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20 Gallon Rectangle tank, 304 Fluval filter:
1Rosy Tetra, 1 Black Molly
1 Platy, 1 Blue Tail Guppy
2 Blue Tetras, 2 Angelfish, 2 clown loaches,
1 Tail-Light Tetra,
2 Otocinclus, 1 Glass cat fish

15 Gallon -1 Fancy Guppies - 15 Guppy Fry
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Old 01-24-2004, 10:36 AM   #15
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you are overstocked its not how it looks its the waste amount put out by each as far as the ich you should QT the sick one as soon as spots are noticed you need to break the life cycle by removing all fish to another tank for 7 days this is some what stressful on the fish but will cure by preventing reinfestation, daily vacuuming of the bottom will also help there are a few things you need to know Ichthyophthirius life cycle is completed in 3 to 7 days you could do formilin prolonged immersion 3 treatments on alternating days are recommended to ensure all emerging theronts are killed, ich cannot complete its life cyclce at 86 deg but alot of fish cannot tolerate such high temps you need to increase you oxygen in your tank also should be close to satuation also the salt ich cannot tolorate over 1 ppt equals to 1.002 sg and so salt can be used as a cure and as a preventative measure i hope this helps you a little good luck
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Old 01-24-2004, 10:50 AM   #16
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Actually cajunbaby75, the heat and salt treatment eradicates ich (even just the heat one does); once the treatment is done there are no more parasites in the tank. Its unneccessary to remove the sick fish, much less the others, as returning the untreated fish to the main tank will likely precipitate another bout of ich (as they will still be carrying it); better to treat the entire tank and kill the parasites off once and for all. Most fish, with the exception of non tropicals, can handle the temps needed as you may find if you go thru the site; lots of folks here have used it with great success and no relapses. No reason to use chemicals or complicated treatments, when all one needs to do is raise the temps and increase O2 exchange. Oh, and 1 ppt = 1.001 SG; its a direct ratio. If you haven't read the article I wrote on ich, I do suggest checking it out: http://www.aquariumadvice.com/showqu...q=2&fldAuto=32

As for you nemo, YAY!! See what happens when you keep the faith? *grin* I'm pleased to hear things are moving in the right direction. Heh, and the lfs lady obviously doesn't like to be told she's wrong. Feh. She can't stop you from spending your money, although I would have a word with the owner/manager about her; as a previous retail manager I know *I* would be furious if one of my employees treated a customer like that.

Keep us updated!
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Old 01-24-2004, 12:18 PM   #17
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Photos of fish for Allivymar

Posting photos here Alli, because I can't figure out how to do it properly otherwise.
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20 Gallon Rectangle tank, 304 Fluval filter:
1Rosy Tetra, 1 Black Molly
1 Platy, 1 Blue Tail Guppy
2 Blue Tetras, 2 Angelfish, 2 clown loaches,
1 Tail-Light Tetra,
2 Otocinclus, 1 Glass cat fish

15 Gallon -1 Fancy Guppies - 15 Guppy Fry
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Old 01-24-2004, 02:26 PM   #18
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They're looking pretty good nemo I see only a few signs of ich!

And I'm hating your dwarf gourami ...mine just tore up my new expensive glosso plant to build a bubble nest for a female gourami I don't even have! Bastige LOL They're all on my list atm.

I do suggest you start looking into a new tank. Those clowns and angelfish are gonna need a lot more space very soon; a 20g is just too small for em. You might want to start by deciding what size tank you're going to get, and buy a filter the right size for it. Set it up on the 20g along with the other filter. This way, when you buy the new tank (hopefully a week or 2 after the new filter), you can add that second filter to that new tank and the tank will automatically be cycled (the bacteria in the 20g will colonise that filter media too!). Plus, it will give you the extra filtration you need right now for all those fish in the 20g.
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Old 01-24-2004, 04:35 PM   #19
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I am working on getting another tank. Did you get my questions about black dots on the underbelly of the loach ( above post photo) and the white line on the platy ..Do you think that it is still the ich?
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20 Gallon Rectangle tank, 304 Fluval filter:
1Rosy Tetra, 1 Black Molly
1 Platy, 1 Blue Tail Guppy
2 Blue Tetras, 2 Angelfish, 2 clown loaches,
1 Tail-Light Tetra,
2 Otocinclus, 1 Glass cat fish

15 Gallon -1 Fancy Guppies - 15 Guppy Fry
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Old 01-24-2004, 05:22 PM   #20
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Actually, the black dots on the loaches look like part of their natural markings; you'll notice the one with the dots doesn't have a full black band. It may be the remnants of one. Plus, its pretty even.

Hard to say whats up with the platy fin. Could be the beginning of fin rot. Could just be a bit of damaged fin. Keep an eye on it.
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