Moping fish?

[Ender]

Hello,

We have a flame dwarf gouriami that seems to be "moping". My wife fed the fish this morning and saw that the flame was staying still at the bottom of the tank in the corner. We try to error on the side of under-feeding rather than over and always get a strong response to food whenever it is put in the tank. The flame just stayed at the bottom though. My wife came in and said that one of the flames was "moping". I finished getting ready and checked on the flame about 20 minutes later. The flame was now in the same corner but near the surface. It is tilted slightly upwards with the head closer to the surface than the tail and is almost motionless. Other than the tilt he is prefectly straight in a swimming position though. I watched it for about 15 minutes and it made a slight move with it's tail every once in a while to stay in it's position and went to the surface for air once. The fish doesn't appear to be gasping or hurt (hard to tell for sure though since he's behind the heater- but everything I can see looks fine). Since he was right next to the heater I checked 10 spots of the tank and the temps were all 77.8 and 78 right next to the fish at the heater. That temp has been pretty constant since we got them about a month ago (it got up to just under 80 when we had a heat wave). I put a small amount of food right on top of him but did not get any response...3 H&Ts gobbled up the food instead ignoring the flame.

I have been doing daily to every other day 10% PWC since we got them to get rid of some of the tannins that are leeching from 2 small new pieces of drift wood that were put in at the same time as the fish. Water params (with the exception of nitrates) have been extremely stable:

Tank is a 46 gal bow stocked with 8 head and taillight tetras, 8 rummynose tetras, 5 gouramis (3 flame dwarfs 2 standard blue dwarfs) and 2 cherry shrimp (i think- we don't see them much) with a fair number of young plants and some snails from the plants...uhg to snails. About 3 WPG coming from PCF lighting about 12 hours per day (on a timer so very constant).

Food: Tetramin Pro Tropical Crisps

temp: 77.8 (heater is set to 78 ) -constant with exception of recent heat wave
ph: 8.0 (same as outgassed tap) -constant even with the driftwood
kH: 3 -this is very constant too but outgassed tap is 5-6
ammonia: 0 (did a fishless cycle) -constant even after adding fish
nitrites: 0 -constant with ammonia
nitrates: 5 -this has been constant for about two weeks but started at 20 (where I wanted to keep it) but dropped over four days when Madagascar Lace went crazy and sprouted 6 new leaves.

I slowed my 10% PWCs from daily to everyother when the nitrates went down but they continued to fall.

Chems: I use stress coat as a dechlor with every PWC, I treated with stress zyme but only when the fish were added, I treat Florish (for the plants) evey 4 days...nothing else ever.

I test daily to every other day - at least ammonia and ph but usually everything since I'm a chemist-at-heart and get giddy when I get to play with chemical indicators.


Thank you.

 

[fearlessfisch]

You could try treating with antibiotics, but it is highly likely that your fish has dwarf gourami virus and will not survive. Please take a look at the following link and the links contained in the discussion (added two below).

http://www.aquariumadvice.com/forums/f12/dwarf-gourami-104192.html

http://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/pfk/pages/item.php?news=1139

http://www.wetwebmedia.com/FWsubwebindex/dwfgdis.htm

A very large percentage of the dwarf gouramis sold in retail fish stores have an incurable virus that takes their lives within a few months. Although most retailers are aware of the problem, they continue to stock dwarf varieties. I strongly encourage people not to buy dwarf gouramis and to opt instead for the non-dwarf and thick-lipped varieties. They do not seem to carry the same virus.

In your place, I would treat with antibiotics (e.g., Kanacyn or Maracyn-II) and keep your water pristine, but I also would not get my hopes up too much. If your fish does not survive, please make sure your fish store knows about this virus, and strongly urge them to stop stocking dwarf gouramis.

Until fishkeepers take a stand and stop purchasing these fish, they will continue to be bred and sold despite this serious problem. If you love dwarf gouramis and really want to have them, I would purchase only from local breeders who can prove to you that their stock is healthy over generations.

I am so sorry about your fish. I hope I am wrong and that antibiotics will do the trick. However, most dwarfs that start "moping" do not recover.

 

[Ender]

I had read that they were not the hardiest of fish but I was under the impression that they would likely do well in very clean water....which I think I have provided. I had not heard about the "probablity" of bringing home a viral infection. Thank you for the links, they were very informative. It sounds like I will probably lose the other ones unless they prove to be resistant.

This might be a little heartless (and please know that I'm upset with the thought of losing my fish...but I still want to keep them you know) but what should I keep with the tetras as a "show" fish. I had chosen the gouramis after much internal debate since they seemed like the best fish if I was up to routine water tests and changes (which I was). Something that would use all levels of the tank...the gouramis are perfect at this.

Would maybe 3 pearl gouramis be OK? They are in the same family as the dwarfs but an entirely different species. Blue paradise and most of the "bigger" gouramis sound like they can be aggresive. What about blue or gold German Rams (in my research I thought they were even more sensitive to my high ph than the dwarf gouramis would be). Angels I think are out since they can be a little aggressive. Discuses are definatly out. Killifish are carnivores and I just don't know if I want that challenge esp. in a community tank. Rainbows are schooling fish and I don't think I could house more than three...which is a disfunctional school from everything I've read. Swordtails can be aggressive male to male in the species (or so I'm told) and I REALLY want everyone to just get along.

What am I missing or what have I been mis-lead on?

Thanks for the advice.

 

[JohnPaul]

Would maybe 3 pearl gouramis be OK? They are in the same family as the dwarfs but an entirely different species. Blue paradise and most of the "bigger" gouramis sound like they can be aggresive.

I kept one Pearl Gourami as a centerpiece fish in my 29 gal community tank for a long time, and he was fine. He would occasionally chase other fish, especially at feeding time, but never hurt anyone and never enough really to so much as stress any of the other tank occupants. Multiple male gouramis can get a little aggressive with each other; if you want to get 3 pearls, I would suggest you try to pick up a male and two females.

What about blue or gold German Rams (in my research I thought they were even more sensitive to my high ph than the dwarf gouramis would be).

Rams should behave fine in your tank, but the pH has me worried a bit. In general, they prefer acidic water. That being said, if your LFS has water similar to yours, and they have tank-raised Rams that they are selling, then it might be possible.

Angels I think are out since they can be a little aggressive. Discuses are definatly out.

Probably right about that.

Killifish are carnivores and I just don't know if I want that challenge esp. in a community tank.

I dunno; I kept a couple different killie species in community tanks without much problems. I had Australes who were perfect citizens; Fundopanchex gardneri (N'Sukka) who were perfect citizens, and Golden Wonder killies who were fine until they were at their full adult size, at which point they decided to eat all my neon tetras. I'm not sure offhand how large your head & tailight tetras are, but if they are larger than neons, they would probably be safe with any of the killies I mentioned.

Rainbows are schooling fish and I don't think I could house more than three...which is a disfunctional school from everything I've read. Swordtails can be aggressive male to male in the species (or so I'm told) and I REALLY want everyone to just get along.

Rainbows are beautiful but tend to be hyper (my own experience). I think in a 46 gal you wouldn't have much of a problem with swordtails, especially if you had 2-3 female per male. While I suppose males can be a bit aggressive from time to time, they would much rather spend their time wooing the females than fighting each other.

 

[lance]

Lack of movement could be from amount or lack of oxygen. Do you have anything for water movement or an airstone?

 

[happygirl65]

Just throwing this out there as another possibility....I personally think that your other gouramis are picking on your inactive flame. Dwarf gouramis can be quite aggressive and territorial...also the behavior sounds like typical stress/hiding behavior from agression issues to me. You might try separating it to another tank or taking it back to the LFS. It is probably happening when you are not looking.

 

[saffikeagan]

bullying could be a definite possibility. I think my first move would be to get him into a QT tank and see how he does on his own. It will also allow you to treat him etc without treating all the tank.

 

[Ender]

I think it's pretty safe to say it's a disease. I've QT two of them and are treating them separatly but I think I'm going to lose them (one is working on an absess on it's head a lot like the one on the very first gourami that died). I lost the moping one and one before it (about two weeks after bringing them home, it got an absess on it's head, mouth swelled and died all within about two days). I still have two in the main tank, both arn't anywhere near as active as when I first got them and one in particular isn't doing too well. I didn't see any bullying (and I would and still sit and watch for hours trying to will the sick fishes better) but maybe they knew to behave when I was in the room...probably not though. The H&Ts wouldn't leave the shrimp alone but I think that was even more just about curiousity...I had to get a tank for the shrimp but they are much more active alone at least. The tetras seem great at least (hey, look at me! I can keep tetras!). The H&Ts are about the size of sony memory duo sticks...so a decent enough size but the rummynoses are pretty small at least right now...they don't eat as much as the H&Ts since they won't go higher than mid-tank to get food (but they seem quite healthy and happy). The fish seem to ignore each other for the most part.

I've got a fluval 304 canister that is on full blast all the time and the water level is below the output. One eight-inch airstone and two two-inch airstones are on about 16 hours per day and a small LED diffusing pump is on the rest of the time with the lunar lights. So, I think air level/water movement so be fairly decent.

I really wanted rams or rainbows but just thought that the water I have and/or the tank size just wasn't well suited for it. So, I went with dwarf gouramis...but that doesn't seem like a great idea in retrospect. I thought about just taking them back to the LFS (a small independant fish-only store that has never steered me wrong and corrected me when I had steered myself wrong) with a nasty note but I think they would probably just kill them and wouldn't change what they do as far as carrying dwarfs...so I'd rather just stick it out and hope everyone recovers. They have given me free meds and advice on how to treat, so I guess they are making an effort at least and it also sounds like I'm not close to the first customer to have such an issue....which comforted me at first (hey, i'm not killing my fish) but left me just mad (why do you keep selling them then?).

I'm less concerned with the killis eating my tetras than how to feed the killis properly. I've read some conflicting things as far as a daily food with carnivores. Currently I feed a daily flake-type food and supplement with one feeding every three days of freeze-dried foods soaked in Seachem's Nourish. Carnivores sound like i'd have to feed daily freeze-dried or frozen and supplement with live blood worms or something like that. Most things I have read have said not to feed killis, dicuses and the like a food designed for omnivores especially a flake-type one. In their own tank this might be fun but in a community tank I think it would be a hassle to have to attempt to have two separate diets in the same tank.

 

[JohnPaul]

Well I kept several generations of killies in a community tank that was fed predominantly flake food, with (seemingly) no ill effect. I had 3 different flakes that I would feed: a general (omnivore) flake, a 100% spirulina flake food, and a dried pressed brine shrimp flake food. Normally I would feed the omnivore food every other day, and on the off days feed a combo of the algae and brine shrimp flakes at the same time. I would also from time to time feed the tank other things, including live bloodworms and frozen glassworms.

 

[Ender]

I'll have to keep that in mind regarding the killis. I really like the looks of them....just got a little scared off by the carnivore title. We're down to three gouramis now, but the three are looking a little better. Fingers crossed.