More Ich questions..

The friendliest place on the web for anyone with an interest in aquariums or fish keeping!
If you have answers, please help by responding to the unanswered posts.

Screwylui

Aquarium Advice Apprentice
Joined
Mar 9, 2005
Messages
40
Location
Toronto, ON
hi ,
i recently discovered that my fish had ich, i've currently been using the temperature treatment (87) and it seems to be working. although it has been at this temp for more than 3 weeks now and while all the ich is gone from most of the fish. the cardinal tetras still seem to have cysts on them. ( very few , like 1 or 2 cysts per fish) should i just be more patient.. or should i jack up the temperature?


TIA
 
The plants will bounce back once the salt is removed. You are only going to change the osmolarity by a little.
 
How is salt supposed to help -- his temperature is already at 87F. If this heat is supposed to kill Ich, what's the salt for? :|
 
How is salt supposed to help -- his temperature is already at 87F. If this heat is supposed to kill Ich, what's the salt for?

Aquarium salt disrupts the osmotic balance between the water and the parasite, hence making the ich parasite dehydrate and die. Combining both heat and salt, can kill ich in days.
 
If you can disrupt the osmotic balance using salt, why the need for heat?
 
the heat kills it, like sterilization of your fish so they will be clean

like sterilizing doctors tools, they use heat to kill the bacteria, viruses, and parasites

and ICH is a parasite and they only live up to 84*F and 86*F will kill them, why do you think that Discus never really have ICH? cause they live in waters 86*f-92*F
 
The heat makes the ichs lifecycle go faster. Ich is only treatable in its free-swimming phase. When the parasite drops off the fish and to the bottom of the aquarium it is vulnerable and salt is the best killer of most ciliated protozoans.
You should keep the salt in for 2 weeks. What concentration of salt are you using? I use 3% or 1 tblsp per gallon. If you can, you should move the affected fish to QT and treat to save your plants.
 
Have to admit, I am being a bit of a smart-ass. My frustration comes from reading people's suggestions on Ich treatment -- everybody seems to have something to say, but don't really know the science behind what they suggest. So I am challenging the status quo.

My favorite is people who suggest heat AND salt, and when confronted to explain why both are needed they miraculously go silent (not so much the case in this topic, though). High temp kills Ich. Salt kills Ich. If both are effective, why the need for both? Why not throw in some malachite green, too? See where I'm going with this?

We also get beat with conflicting information. No wonder there is so much confusion. From another topic:
An t-iasg said:
But the heat treatment is effective throughout the life cycle.
Yet here we find someone saying Ich is only treatable during its free-swimming stage. I hope it was meant "with something other than heat."
 
I agree Fish Surgeon, there is alot of confusion on this subject. Will somebody WHo really knows, (an expert or highly experienced professional) please clarify the following?
Do we need both heat and salt or will one treatment work, (better in conjunction?)?
How long do we have to treat using the heat and/or salt treatment?
 
Even opinions on what temperature to use to kill Ich have changed:
http://www.aquariumadvice.com/viewtopic.php?t=4549
:roll:

Now let me present you with my suggestion. I would never use high (84F and greater) heat AND salt simultaneously. One or the other, yes; in combination, no. As if your fish were not stressed enough from the Ich, why pile three more stressors on them?

Did I say three stressors? Yes, I did: high heat, salinity, and oxygen deprivation. Salt and heat both lower water's oxygen saturation on their own, and it is even worse when you combine the two. Even with intense aeration, you cannot force oxygen back into the water and expect "normal" levels. Remember the laws of chemistry.

Screwylui, bump up the temperature one more degree - to 88F - and be patient for one more week. Also, how are you measuring water temperature? It is important to measure it accurately.
 
My favorite is people who suggest heat AND salt, and when confronted to explain why both are needed they miraculously go silent (not so much the case in this topic, though). High temp kills Ich. Salt kills Ich. If both are effective, why the need for both? Why not throw in some malachite green, too? See where I'm going with this?

There are three stages to the ich parasite. First where it becomes attached to the fish (the visible stage, and the first of the three). Second being when it detaches from the fish and falls, and third being after it has landed and is on the ground and has become free swimming. Basically (and this has been from my understanding, which could be incorrect) heat speeds up the life cycle of the parasite, making it grow at a faster rate and detach at a faster rate, but once it gets to a temp of 86 F or higher, it can no longer survive. Kinda like how a person can't survive in a temp of more than 104F for too long.

Salt, like I said already, disrupts the osmotic balance of the parasite, effectively drying it up through osmosis. Using a hypertonic solution (with salt) will cause the water in the cytoplasm of the parasite to exit, and then dry it up.

So, with heat and salt, you get something effective. Heat speeds up the lifecycle, making the parasite fill and detach faster from the fish(or if the temp is high enough, this being the preferred way, the parasite will die), and the salt dry the parasite up.

Medication is only effective in the free swimming stages of the parasite, as this is when it isn't protected by it's cystic membrane.

Generally speaking, you could kill ich with just either heat, or salt, but both is more effective and more preffered the medications.

Again, this is my attempt to explain, using some bio knowledge. I could be wrong on some of it.
 
Did I say three stressors? Yes, I did: high heat, salinity, and oxygen deprivation

Most fish can stand the high heat, no problem.

Salinity isn't usually an issue either. We're only raising the salinity to around a 1.002 level. Nothing EVEN close to the level of natural saltwater which is roughly 1.082.

Oxygen deprivation can be solved by adding extra aeration/surface agitation in the water; either by adding a oxygenation device, or simply lowering your water level so water has to flow farther from the filter to hit the water.

Yes, it's stressful, but so is letting the fish get sucked on by little parasitic protozoans too, isn't it?
 
Devilishturtles said:
Oxygen deprivation can be solved by adding extra aeration/surface agitation in the water

Incorrect. You cannot force oxygen into water at a greater concentration than the water will allow. Aeration will replace the oxygen faster (this is the "solve" you are implying, I think), but with high heat and salt applied you are still lowering the water's oxygen carrying capacity to begin with. If you truly wanted to force oxygen into the water, you would need to pressurize your aquarium. This is why I am for one method or the other, but not both together.
 
Well fishsurgeon, I guess you have it all nailed. :roll:
We are telling you from our experiences what works and why. All I can tell you is that I have used both heat and salt for parasitic problems and my fish have survived, parasite free.
Explain to me again how a low salt concentration stresses fish? I routinley add salt to my tanks as a tonic and also keep a permanent low salt level in my ponds as a preventative.
Also keeping your temp at 87 degrees is not going to suffocate your fish. Believe it or not, fish outdoors are routinley exposed to high temps and seem to survive. Keeping a good surface agitation will help with the oxygen loss, I know that for a fact.
I have been keeping and breeding fish for years, so I might know something about the subject.
JMO
 
Aeration will replace the oxygen faster (this is the "solve" you are implying, I think), but with high heat and salt applied you are still lowering the water's oxygen carrying capacity to begin with.

Ok? But if we do both, then what is the issue? This will still kill the ich faster...How much does raising the heat actually cut down on oxygen levels? I agree, aerating the water won't solve the loss of oxygen problem, but it WILL replace it faster.
 
As a biologist and treater of ich, I am sticking with 86*F and salt.

It is true that water has less capacity to hold oxygen at higher temps, increasing the surface agitation solves that problem. Aside from that, tropical fish can with stand 86*F for the duration of the treatment. Check the fish's profile to see the upper limits of water temp if you are concerned about a certain fish. The heat speeds up the life cycle of the ich and you will often see the ich get worse before it gets better. The salt, which barely changes the osmolarity, affects the ich parasite but the larger organisms (both fish and plants) barely feel the affects. Also, keep in mind that our FW fish did not evolve in pure FW with absolutely no salt. Many people add aquarium salt to their FW tanks as part of regular tank maintenance. If you are adding salt, make sure to dissolve it in water first to prevent the fish from having a reaction with direct contact with the added salt.

I hope this was helpful :D
 
wow, all of this advice has been very helpful indeed. i must say that i agree with the opinion that if one method works just stick with it and don't try anything else. it's been roughly 4 weeks now @ about 87 F and i no longer see ANY signs of Ich. So it's time to start lowering the temps very gradually. On a side note it seems that my cardinal tetras and clown loaches were the most susceptible to the parasite. The tetras certainly took the longest to stop showing signs of Ich...

Thanks for all the input !

Lui
 
Back
Top Bottom