New Cory doing well in qt but not display

[sobersteve323]

Hi all.

Short version: New panda Cory looks like it’s struggling, is pale and has trouble staying upright in my display tank. Took it out and placed in my 10 gallon quarantine tank and it’s perking up. The odd part is the quarantine tank is filled with water from the display tank with a mature sponge filter that I store in my display filter. Any ideas what’s going on? Injured during transportation?

Long version: Used to have a moderate-densely planted tank. Had kids and got lazy and removed all the plants except for low light easy ones like Anubias and crypts. As fish died off over the years I never replaced. Finally just had Amano Shrimp and cories left. Kids are older and now I decided to get back into the hobby and got some more cories to start yesterday.

LFS had one corie in stock for a month and 4 new arrivals from this week. Against my better judgement I got talked into putting the “month” Cory directly into my display and the 4 newbies into my QT. I guess I felt safe since I saw the Cory there a week ago and it still looked healthy (along with the other stock in the store) and they quarantined new stock.

The single Cory immediately looked like it was struggling in my display tank and I thought it was just stressed and gave it over night to calm down. Since last night the Cory keeps turning over to its side (both sides, not favoring one). It looked calmer this morning but also more pale and stopped trying right itself. I took it out of the display and tossed it into the QT and it immediately started to perk up and even got some color back. The 4 in the QT looked fine after 24 hours (minus the one guy that got stuck in the plastic bag, face palm).

Any suggestions on what’s going on with the single Cory? Injured in transport?

Random details:
Display tank is mature planted 50 gallon, canister filter. Water test kit expired years ago but I assume the parameters are still “normal” as I’ve still done weekly water changes and no new additions until yesterday. Currently 3 senior cories and 7 Amano Shrimp.
Quarantine tank is 10 gallon with water from display tank, sponge filter from display tank canister.
Both tanks are at room temperature, around 78 degrees in summer (each has a thermometer).

Any suggestions appreciated thanks.

 

[sobersteve323]

Well came home today and unfortunately it died. Doesn’t look injured or anything but I guess it answers my questions as to why it was doing better in quarantine than the display tank (it wasn’t, obviously). The other 4 in the QT still seem fine though.

 

[Andy Sager]

Unfortunately, "bad" water does not always look different than good water so it's time to get new test kit(s) to check your water out.

You will also find that in many cases, the water at the bottom of large tanks has a slightly different chemical makeup than water at the tops of the tank so even if you are doing water changes, unless you do them from the bottom of the tank, that water will not be getting the same effect as the top of the tank. This is mostly caused by a poorer circulation at the bottom of tanks than tops of tanks.

With cories being bottom fish and ammonia buildup happens at the bottom of tanks first, it would be my guess that this was a water issue more so than a health issue of the cories. Considering that the fish that was in the shop for a month didn't last long in your tank, again, a water in your tank issue, not the fish. Considering that the fish started appearing better once removed from the tank and into the QT, it all points towards the water in your main tank imo.

With that all said, I am not a live plant guy but I have heard on numerous other sites and threads that there are certain substrates that are commonly used for live plant tanks that do give off ammonia or other chemicals and that may be the source of your water issue. Only doing water tests from the bottom of your tank can really identify the issue better. Hold your finger or cap of the test vial until the vial is at the bottom of your tank and fill the vial with that water for testing. Then compare it to the top water in the same tank. I'd do this before adding any more bottom fish to the main tank.

 

[sobersteve323]

Unfortunately, "bad" water does not always look different than good water so it's time to get new test kit(s) to check your water out.

You will also find that in many cases, the water at the bottom of large tanks has a slightly different chemical makeup than water at the tops of the tank so even if you are doing water changes, unless you do them from the bottom of the tank, that water will not be getting the same effect as the top of the tank. This is mostly caused by a poorer circulation at the bottom of tanks than tops of tanks.

With cories being bottom fish and ammonia buildup happens at the bottom of tanks first, it would be my guess that this was a water issue more so than a health issue of the cories. Considering that the fish that was in the shop for a month didn't last long in your tank, again, a water in your tank issue, not the fish. Considering that the fish started appearing better once removed from the tank and into the QT, it all points towards the water in your main tank imo.

With that all said, I am not a live plant guy but I have heard on numerous other sites and threads that there are certain substrates that are commonly used for live plant tanks that do give off ammonia or other chemicals and that may be the source of your water issue. Only doing water tests from the bottom of your tank can really identify the issue better. Hold your finger or cap of the test vial until the vial is at the bottom of your tank and fill the vial with that water for testing. Then compare it to the top water in the same tank. I'd do this before adding any more bottom fish to the main tank.

I racked my brain all night thinking about it. One thing I thought of was that while I do pretty large weekly water changes, admittedly I only vacuum the substrate around the plants once a month (rationale was that I was really lightly stocked, probably wrong thinking). The night before I picked up the new stock I excitedly vacuumed every nook and cranny. Is it possible I forced my tank into a mini cycle with my overzealous cleaning? If so bad timing with the new little guy. One thing that led me to this was last night I noticed a layer of protein film (probably wrong term) on the surface that’s not normally there. I believe that’s a result of dissolved organics?

On a side note 3 of the 4 newbies are eating in the QT pretty well. Still hoping that the one stuck in the bag pulls through. Poor guy tried swimming upstream as I was dumping into the net and the bag collapsed around him. Stuck only a few seconds before I could free it but hope it wasn’t too injured.

Thanks for the reply!

 

[Andy Sager]

I racked my brain all night thinking about it. One thing I thought of was that while I do pretty large weekly water changes, admittedly I only vacuum the substrate around the plants once a month (rationale was that I was really lightly stocked, probably wrong thinking). The night before I picked up the new stock I excitedly vacuumed every nook and cranny. Is it possible I forced my tank into a mini cycle with my overzealous cleaning? If so bad timing with the new little guy. One thing that led me to this was last night I noticed a layer of protein film (probably wrong term) on the surface that’s not normally there. I believe that’s a result of dissolved organics?

On a side note 3 of the 4 newbies are eating in the QT pretty well. Still hoping that the one stuck in the bag pulls through. Poor guy tried swimming upstream as I was dumping into the net and the bag collapsed around him. Stuck only a few seconds before I could free it but hope it wasn’t too injured.

Thanks for the reply!

A common rationale is a "mini-cycle" but without test results, it's hard to prove or disprove that as the culprit. In a large aquarium however lightly stocked, even over vacuuming should not have caused that because the nitrifying bacteria are in more areas than just the substrate. And we are talking that one small fish was added to probably 40 gallons of water +/- so that probably wasn't the reason. In most cases, even with a brand new aquarium setup, you don't see any appreciable ammonia level for at least a week unless you heavily load the tank. But you may have stirred up some dead areas that developed in your tank and whatever was stirred up was just hanging just above the substrate. It would be a more easily diagnosed problem if you also had added other fish that do not sit at the bottom. That way you could see if the water effected all the fish or just the catfish.

The clue is that the fish looked better once removed from the main tank and put in the other tank even tho it contained the same water as the main tank. That says to me that it's more than just the water. On a recent visit to a fellow aquarist in Ohio, he also asked me about an issue with his Cory cats. From the looks of his very nicely decorated and heavily planted tank, it appeared that there could be a water circulation issue. I suggested the same testing water from the top and bottom as I did above and sure enough, the results were different between the two areas. By him simply adding a small power head ( it was only a 20 gal tank) to circulate the water at the bottom of the tank, within a day or two, the fish started acting better and the water tests equalized between top and bottom. There is also another benefit to adding the extra circulation, Cory cats come from active water so water movement helps the fish not hurt it.

As for the 4th cory in the bag, unless there was serious damage to his body I doubt being stuck did much damage. I've had cats survive being crushed in the corner of the bag during an entire trip from S. America to the U.S. with no issues. But if the other fish are eating and this one isn't, that may be a sign that it is suffering from an internal condition or being bullied by the other fish. You need to keep an eye out for both possibilities.

Hope this helps.

 

[sobersteve323]

A common rationale is a "mini-cycle" but without test results, it's hard to prove or disprove that as the culprit. In a large aquarium however lightly stocked, even over vacuuming should not have caused that because the nitrifying bacteria are in more areas than just the substrate. And we are talking that one small fish was added to probably 40 gallons of water +/- so that probably wasn't the reason. In most cases, even with a brand new aquarium setup, you don't see any appreciable ammonia level for at least a week unless you heavily load the tank. But you may have stirred up some dead areas that developed in your tank and whatever was stirred up was just hanging just above the substrate. It would be a more easily diagnosed problem if you also had added other fish that do not sit at the bottom. That way you could see if the water effected all the fish or just the catfish.

The clue is that the fish looked better once removed from the main tank and put in the other tank even tho it contained the same water as the main tank. That says to me that it's more than just the water. On a recent visit to a fellow aquarist in Ohio, he also asked me about an issue with his Cory cats. From the looks of his very nicely decorated and heavily planted tank, it appeared that there could be a water circulation issue. I suggested the same testing water from the top and bottom as I did above and sure enough, the results were different between the two areas. By him simply adding a small power head ( it was only a 20 gal tank) to circulate the water at the bottom of the tank, within a day or two, the fish started acting better and the water tests equalized between top and bottom. There is also another benefit to adding the extra circulation, Cory cats come from active water so water movement helps the fish not hurt it.

As for the 4th cory in the bag, unless there was serious damage to his body I doubt being stuck did much damage. I've had cats survive being crushed in the corner of the bag during an entire trip from S. America to the U.S. with no issues. But if the other fish are eating and this one isn't, that may be a sign that it is suffering from an internal condition or being bullied by the other fish. You need to keep an eye out for both possibilities.

Hope this helps.

I might have incorrectly assumed the single cory was doing better in the QT, as it did die within a few hours of placing it in there. My original 3 cories in the display don't seem to be acting any different/stressed and the shrimp are busy doing their shrimp-things in all corners of the tank. While I understand what you're saying about deadspots in the tank, I'm pretty certain there aren't any circulation issues in there. I don't use any polishing pads in my canister filter so there's always tiny particles floating in the water column. I use them as a visual aid along with leaves moving for fixing deadspots in the tank (everything moves).

After losing the single cory on Saturday, I started doing water changes in the QT with just dechlorinated water as a precaution in case it was a quality issue from the display. Yesterday I lost "squishy" and this morning one of the 3 "eaters" was looking a little off before leaving for work.

As much as I hate to play the blame game, I'm starting to think it's an issue with the LFS's stock. It's a fairly new store that I've never been to. My first visit, last Sunday, there was 3 cories in a tank (including the single one). I was looking for 10 and they told me they'd get more on Wednesday direct from Asia and I got a text saying they had them in. When I showed up on Friday only the single cory was left in the tank and there was only 4 of the "newbies" left that were delivered on Wednesday. They told me they had a bunch of people come in and sold all of the other ones (they might have, but messed up if true since they "set aside 10" for me). I'm starting to wonder if they all died during the week. I was told the single cory had been there over a month but I actually only actually saw it alive for 5 days.

Hopefully at least a couple of these guys survive as the "eaters" all have some color now. In the past I've gotten fish from the nastiest places and had them survive in a QT. Figures that I'd get some from some clean looking tanks and have poor luck lol.

Thanks again for the comments.

 

[Andy Sager]

Panda Cories are a tough call. Not the hardiest of cory cats. If they are farmed, ( if they are coming from Asia they are farmed) any number of health issues could be the cause. So hard to say when you don't have water parameter tests to compare.
Disease diagnosis is also tough but not impossible to make. I really like ( and use) this book ( https://www.amazon.com/Handbook-Fis...ocphy=9012205&hvtargid=pla-568694152990&psc=1 ) for diagnosing. It's an older book (there are multiple newer editions), available at a number of places online and some of the recommended meds are no longer available but it has an excellent diagnosis chart system. Once you have the diagnosis, you can search for currently available meds for that disease. I get them used because if nothing else is good in the book, just the diagnosing charts are worth the money. imo

 

[sobersteve323]

Panda Cories are a tough call. Not the hardiest of cory cats. If they are farmed, ( if they are coming from Asia they are farmed) any number of health issues could be the cause. So hard to say when you don't have water parameter tests to compare.
Disease diagnosis is also tough but not impossible to make. I really like ( and use) this book ( https://www.amazon.com/Handbook-Fis...ocphy=9012205&hvtargid=pla-568694152990&psc=1 ) for diagnosing. It's an older book (there are multiple newer editions), available at a number of places online and some of the recommended meds are no longer available but it has an excellent diagnosis chart system. Once you have the diagnosis, you can search for currently available meds for that disease. I get them used because if nothing else is good in the book, just the diagnosing charts are worth the money. imo

Good to know for peace of mind, I didn't know they weren't too hardy. I've been pretty lucky with them, the only fish I've had an easier time with were gold fish as a kid, lol.

At one time I had panda pairs spawning in the planted display tank without any intervention and around 5 of the fry made it to adulthood. Probably more made it to juvenile age, but there was also an angel fish in the tank. The last time I saw any fry was around 5 years ago though and I like to tell myself that these remaining 3 are some of the offspring (can't really tell, there was over 15 adults in the tank at one point lol).

Thanks for the suggestion, I'll check it out. Although I'm not sure how I'd diagnose "stopped moving, laying on side a few times, died" lol. I inspected the two fish after they died and I didn't notice anything obvious (red gills, torn fins, patches, spots, etc).

 

[Andy Sager]

Good to know for peace of mind, I didn't know they weren't too hardy. I've been pretty lucky with them, the only fish I've had an easier time with were gold fish as a kid, lol.

At one time I had panda pairs spawning in the planted display tank without any intervention and around 5 of the fry made it to adulthood. Probably more made it to juvenile age, but there was also an angel fish in the tank. The last time I saw any fry was around 5 years ago though and I like to tell myself that these remaining 3 are some of the offspring (can't really tell, there was over 15 adults in the tank at one point lol).

Thanks for the suggestion, I'll check it out. Although I'm not sure how I'd diagnose "stopped moving, laying on side a few times, died" lol. I inspected the two fish after they died and I didn't notice anything obvious (red gills, torn fins, patches, spots, etc).

The evaluation is more a "if this, go to step 2. If that, go to step 3" type evaluation. So you would need to just follow the path. Once I am confident I have a diagnosis, I go back and choose all the ones I didn't just to confirm that it isn't the other possibilities. So well worth the $$$
imo.

 

[sobersteve323]

Lost another panda last night and my wife just texted me a picture of one more on it’s side.

I remember when I first started this planted tank I had 10 pandas in a QT. They were all very active and voracious eaters. I expected that this time. None of these new ones have been very active at all. Mostly just sitting still at the bottom and eating maybe half the time if the food is touching their face.

Wife asked me if I was going back to that new place again... I don’t think so lol.

 

[Andy Sager]

Lost another panda last night and my wife just texted me a picture of one more on it’s side.

I remember when I first started this planted tank I had 10 pandas in a QT. They were all very active and voracious eaters. I expected that this time. None of these new ones have been very active at all. Mostly just sitting still at the bottom and eating maybe half the time if the food is touching their face.

Wife asked me if I was going back to that new place again... I don’t think so lol.

For me, I use the "3 strikes and you are out" method when I go to a new store or try to keep a new species. Things happen. Bad shipments can happen to the best stores out there. I also evaluate the entire store, not just one tank. When I was searching for new Angel stock for my hatchery, I found a nice place while on vacation with a large fish section and some beautiful fish. The problem was, I saw a number of tanks within the system that had sick fish. With a centralized system, all fish in a section are subject to what is happening in other sections of the system. I saw another store with a smaller fish section but all individual tanks. Again, there were a couple of tanks with sick fish but the Angels looked fine. I took some of these angels and brought them back to Florida. They grew well and became really good breeders for me ( their pictures are in my Wigglers 2 thread).
So it's not always fair to judge a shop based on just one experience. And to judge with a known difficult specie is also not really fair imo. But it's not my money.

For what it's worth, Some Asian farmed fish are known carriers of viruses and other pathogens. It's a good thing you use QT as that is the best way to keep your main tank(s) from becoming infected. Getting fish from local breeders is a better choice imo. When that is not an option, I try to stick with hardier species. There are so many Cory cats now available to choose from.

 

[sobersteve323]

For me, I use the "3 strikes and you are out" method when I go to a new store or try to keep a new species. Things happen. Bad shipments can happen to the best stores out there. I also evaluate the entire store, not just one tank. When I was searching for new Angel stock for my hatchery, I found a nice place while on vacation with a large fish section and some beautiful fish. The problem was, I saw a number of tanks within the system that had sick fish. With a centralized system, all fish in a section are subject to what is happening in other sections of the system. I saw another store with a smaller fish section but all individual tanks. Again, there were a couple of tanks with sick fish but the Angels looked fine. I took some of these angels and brought them back to Florida. They grew well and became really good breeders for me ( their pictures are in my Wigglers 2 thread).
So it's not always fair to judge a shop based on just one experience. And to judge with a known difficult specie is also not really fair imo. But it's not my money.

For what it's worth, Some Asian farmed fish are known carriers of viruses and other pathogens. It's a good thing you use QT as that is the best way to keep your main tank(s) from becoming infected. Getting fish from local breeders is a better choice imo. When that is not an option, I try to stick with hardier species. There are so many Cory cats now available to choose from.

I may give them another try in the future but I’m really after getting my panda population back up. It looks like the place mainly focuses on cichlids and most of the reviews on yelp talk about the quality of them (it’s how I found the place).

 

[sobersteve323]

Well came home and both remaining fish died probably early in the day. Quarantine tank and equipment is currently getting sterilized

Thanks for all of the comments

 

[Andy Sager]

Well came home and both remaining fish died probably early in the day. Quarantine tank and equipment is currently getting sterilized

Thanks for all of the comments

Sorry to hear but better in QT than the main tank.
I suggest trying to find a local breeder if you really want Pandas. They are such an iffy fish that locally bred will give you your best shot.

 

[sobersteve323]

Sorry to hear but better in QT than the main tank.
I suggest trying to find a local breeder if you really want Pandas. They are such an iffy fish that locally bred will give you your best shot.

Yeah, glass half full, right?



I used to drive 1.5-2 hours round trip to go to an amazing place but sadly they closed up a few years ago. I was hoping this would be my new go-to as it's only 10 minutes away lol.

 

[Andy Sager]

Yeah, glass half full, right?



I used to drive 1.5-2 hours round trip to go to an amazing place but sadly they closed up a few years ago. I was hoping this would be my new go-to as it's only 10 minutes away lol.

1/2 full, 1/4 full, 1/3 full...however you want to view it. lol But this is exactly why you use QT. There are so many diseases out there that you don't know what you may be bringing in. One could easily destroy years of good work and lots of money by adding just one sick fish. This isn't like the old days. ( I was there for them days. ) New diseases have been created with the new created fish. And with many medications no longer available to the hobbyist, it's even harder to cure what does come in with your aquatic friends. So better safe than sorry imo.

As for this new store, you never know, they may still become your "go-to" place.

 

[sobersteve323]

1/2 full, 1/4 full, 1/3 full...however you want to view it. lol But this is exactly why you use QT. There are so many diseases out there that you don't know what you may be bringing in. One could easily destroy years of good work and lots of money by adding just one sick fish. This isn't like the old days. ( I was there for them days. ) New diseases have been created with the new created fish. And with many medications no longer available to the hobbyist, it's even harder to cure what does come in with your aquatic friends. So better safe than sorry imo.



As for this new store, you never know, they may still become your "go-to" place.

Random update. I didn’t end up going back to that same store but I went to a really nasty one I used to visit back in the day. Still dirty and the water smells like gym socks but I gave them a shot.
Over the last month I got 14 Rasboras and 12 panda corys from them. Granted Rasboras are pretty hardy but they all survived QT looking great. Then I got the pandas and lost 3 of the “weaker” looking ones in QT. The remaining 9 are currently doing great in the display tank.

I’ve been reading up a lot on Panda Cories lately and seems like they’re one of the weaker variety of Cory these days. I don’t remember losing any pandas during QT a decade ago!