Please help! NM on the (deceased) Gourami... real bad Ich.

[NeonJulie]

Over a week ago, my tank did the amazing thing and actually finished it's cycling. (About 36 days of fishless cycling.)

These are the pics of my new fish, which I got on Saturday night. I drove out an hour to get them from a place with prestine specimens, very clean tanks, and no neon deaths.

I am requesting help!

I have been concerned about this look of my new dwarf gourami and front half of his body looking "dirty", not colored and not irridescant like the rest of him. I'm not sure, but it may be growing. To be honest, I've never looked real closely at any kind of gourami, and I can't tell if he's really got something, or if that's how he's supposed to look. Some of the pics below show something lighting up under the flash, like a turquoise color. Could it be Velvet?! He's not showing any other symptoms of illness that I can see... he eats and scavenges very well, spends a lot of time chasing his reflection, and he doesn't look like he's itchy or uncomfortable.

Also, any comments on the shape of his head? It looks awfully flat, boney, not round.

See the non-shiny greyish areas? (Like his belly?)

These are how the scales under his chin, with the same dirty greyish color look, under normal light, no flash.

This pic is blurry unfortunately, but it's his natural color without the flash, and you can really see that dark greyish patch on him, his belly, part of his cheek and head.

Here's a closeup with the flash. It lit up a bunch of specks... are they his natural coloring? ...or does he have Velvet, etc.

From the side:

Here's him doing what he usually does... all day long.. up, down, up down...

Here are some of the neons... they are all doing well, but one (I believe female?) came to us with a big red open sore area where her gill should be. She eats well, she's very smart and finds the food first, and doesn't get pecked more than she pecks back. But the thing has gotten larger, as she grows. It's not shrinking. I'm dosing the tank daily with just a slightly bit less than recommended dose. (1 tsp for my 12g when they recommend 1/10g.)

She is the one by the pot. You can see the sore is right behind her eye, the red area. None of the other neons have it. Instead they are usually that white area - her other cheek is also white, not red.

Thanks for any input, comments, and peace of mind! <3

 

[Devilishturtles]

Honestly...all your fish look just fine. The gourami looks fine, the neons look fine.

The coloration is normal. The spot on the neon...I don't really know what to say. I've had a black tetra that seems to get this gill infection every once in a while so that the gill flares out a lot and for a few weeks. Then it just goes away.

HTH

 

[NeonJulie]

Well thanks. Last night he developed a yellowish sheen to his body, so I'm still uncertain at this point. Is there any harm to adding a minor amount of dissolved salt to the tank, to fend off anything he might have developed while he was under stress acclimating? The tank is at 80-81 degrees.

 

[Devilishturtles]

No harm in adding salt. 1 tsp per 5 gallons would work. Also, try keeping the lighs out. Oodinium is somewhat light needy and darkness will slow down the spread of it. Can you try and get a pic of the yellow sheen? Velvet will look like ich only smaller and much more like a "sheet". Gouramis do have that irridescent sheen to them that I see on your gouramis.

Is the fish flashing at all? Breathing heavy? Acting abnormal in any way?

 

[NeonJulie]

No, he's not acting abnormal at all that I can tell.

I did add about 1 1/2 tsp to the tank. It's a 12g so that's actually a little under the dose. Should I add some more?

I think the gold sheen IS coming up on the pictures... I can't say I remember it being there before. But then again, I've never had this kind of gourami. I just can't remember seeing that many gourami photos where they looked so "dirty" and I want to make sure I catch this before he becomes ill and suffers.

(Other than that... boy he's looking pretty. Looks like he's discovered the algae wafers. And he's eating very well!) Should I be offended that he tries to bite me from the other side of the glass? *jk*

With Flash:

No Flash:

So what's the verdict, if anyone can help?! The first few days I got him, he looked very very pale (his turqouise spots looks like Las Vegas in comparison). He gradually colored over the next few days, but it started looking like he stuck his head in dirt, only the more I looked, the more I thought it was expanding. Then like I said yesterday, it looks like this goldish sheen has appeared, that I'm almost positive wasn't there before. The question is... is it just his natural coloring? Or am I just going to have to watch him and wait for him to show unpleasant symptoms before I know... :/

Thank you for your help - I know my fish isn't laying sideways yet, and that means typically I don't get too many people responding from some forums... so any help would be SO appreciated!

 

[Devilishturtles]

Hey Julie. I tried to gather up a few pics of dwarf gouramis for you to compare with. I see the sheen on your gourami, but it looks like his natural coloration is coming out. (Of course, I'm going to feel awful if I'm wrong, but maybe the pics will help us).

http://www.aquahobby.com/gallery/e_lalia.php
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Colisa_lalia.jpg
http://www.tropicalfishfinder.co.uk/article_detail.asp?id=25
http://www.aqua-fish.net/show.php?cur_lang=2&what=article&id=34
http://www.aquahobby.com/lalia.html
http://www.freeinfosociety.com/site.php?postnum=766

Let me know what you think.

 

[NeonJulie]

Well, I think he's looking quite normal, in comparison. Thanks for the little bit of research and peace of mind, I'll keep a close eye on him for any behavioural symptoms. Just to be sure, I think I'll add a small dose of salt temporarily, since everyone's still acclimating.

 

[NeonJulie]

Well I guess my pictures are all I have left to him... I'm so shocked and sad, but on Saturday night when the fish started getting white spots, I started treating gradually with salt. He did fine, until about a half hour ago, when I went to do a small water change... and he was gone. That fast... I'd just seen him fifteen minutes ago. I'm so distraught! I don't know what to do! The other fish, the neons and otos seem to be doing ok. I never though it'd be him.

NOW what do I do? Do I consider buying a replacement dwarf gourami? Do I buy it now, while the ick is undergoing treatment? (2 tsp Salt/gallon at 83-84 degrees)... do I wait until after everything is cured and safe, and then go buy another one? What if HE brings ich back into the tank, and I have to go through this all over again? I do have a quarantine setup, about 4 gallons... but I think everyone says that's too small to leave a tank in for weeks and weeks to rule out any ich.

Actually I think what I really need is some advice on grieving. /sob

 

[Devilishturtles]

Oh my...sorry Julie. The fish developed Ich? Unfortanetly...that's very common.

Don't buy another now until you get rid of the ich. That's what it's usually always best to QT new fish. 4 gallons is not too small for a dwarf gourami in my opinion. As long as it is cycled, just leave the new one in there for 2 weeks atleast to make sure their is no Ich.

For now, I'd up your temp to atleast 87. Leaving it at 83-84 is just going to speed the ich up right now.

HTH, and sorry again.

 

[NeonJulie]

I would definitely considering upping the temperature, but I've been told that it will add to the distress of my remaining (and sensitive) fish. On the other hand, I'm moving into day 3 of serious stress for them. It just seems like this is dragging, and even with the 2+ tsp per gallon of salt in there right now, I don't see any difference.

Everybody is so touch and go right now, that I'm not sure if reaching my hand in there and upping the temp might not just push them over. On the other hand, it doesn't seem like anything is moving forward.

Thankfully they were well fed beforehand, because they aren't eating much now, and haven't for days. They lay half on their side on the gravel and struggle to breathe. (But they made it through the night.) They pant and pant, and try to swim but maybe because of their fins, it's very difficult for them. (I think this is why they aren't eating much... they don't know how to get to it, even when it lands near them.) I'm almost expecting subsequent deaths, but I'm doing everything I can to help them make it through this. The door is closed, a dim light is on, their tank light is off, no loud noises, etc.

People act like Ich is so common, I just assumed if I got it, it would be no big deal to eliminate. But all of my fish seem to be seriously stressed, even though they typically only have 1-3 spots on them. (Which is better than a lot of photos I've seen.)

At this rate, I'm not sure what I should do... momentarily stress them by creeping up the temperature? Or leave them alone and let them fight this a few more days. Will the otos and neons be able to handle temps of 87?? Man, I feel like I did with the gourami... if I didn't treat him, he'd have probably died... but maybe he died from the treatment.

The real issue is that I'm leaving on Saturday morning for a week vacation, and someone will be feeding them, but has no real disease experience. So I need this to get underway before I leave.


Also, I don't have my QT up and running... but I do have it's filter cartridge running with my colonized filter. I'm concerned about ich being in the filter, but what I may do is before I get the new fish, run the new filter/QT tank totally free of anything, and let the ich die out with no hosts. Hopefully then, when I get the new gourami acclimated, he won't have to worry about getting the old ich.

 

[Devilishturtles]

The otos can be a little stressed by the warmer temps... the rest of the fish should be fine. Unfortanelty, the only other way to treat ich is to blast it with meds which, with otos and neons, you don't want to do. Lower the water level in your tank, or add an airstone to help with the heat treatment. And make sure your heater is strong enough to stay at or ABOVE 87. If it only reaches that and drops below again, you aren't doing anything but harm at that point. Sounds like nothing you did wrong to cause what happened, you just got the ich from the fish store, seemingly from the gourami.

I would definitley reccomend the heat. It goes a long way in killing ich and with added aeration to the water, the fish will be fine. Like I said, just make sure the heater is strong enough to sustain temps that high. I made the mistake of not having a strong enough heater and I ended up killing my 2 GBR's.

HTH...sorry again about your fish.

 

[NeonJulie]

I wouldn't worry about my heater... it sustained 90 degrees no problem. In fact, it's so efficient, the lowest I can get it to is 80. (But that's when it's set for 71!) I'm not sure how I'll be able to to tell what to set it at to get it to 87... but I think it's at 83, and that was two "clicks". So what do I want, 4 clicks?

Why isn't the salt working on it's own with the higher but not that high temperature?! It's at a little bit higher than 2 tsp/gallon...

I have an air stone in there permanently. I just checked. One of the otos has taken to sucking on the bottom of the filter, where the bubbles collect. He's just getting showered in bubbles.

I'm still afraid to change my temp... the heater right now is there veritable promised land for the neons, where they are laying under it. The heater's also almost at the bottom of the tank. Am I darned if I do, darned if I don't? What is the worst that will happen, if I just leave the situation as it is?

 

[Devilishturtles]

Am I darned if I do, darned if I don't?

In my honest opinion...kinda. It doesn't seem the salt is doing anything at the moment. You could try adding one more teaspoon of salt per gallon, but even that might not help. I'd worry more about killing the ich as quick as possible now and not on distubing the neons.

What's the worst that could happen right now? The ich could continue to spread. The heat is a proven way to kill ich, so why not?

In the end, I hope everything makes it!

 

[MyCatsDrool]

Wow, that sucks...Just got cycled and your first fish have Ich!

the best thing to do is crank the heat up to 87-89 and leave it there for 3 weeks or so and wait it out. Put in an airstone to help oxygenate and move the water. Cut back feedings a bit, and maybe add fresh minced garlic or a garlic fish soak additive to their regular food. Then just wait it out. Ich can be the devil to get rid of, so make sure you really get rid of it before adding any more fish.

I'm irritated with the fish store that sold them to you!

The salt can help a little while the heat is high, but keep the salt level to a minimum, as too much can stress the guys more.

Think of ich like kids getting chicken pox, only you never get immune. It itches, you feel like you have a cold, you have a fever, it is miserable. That is kinda how your fish are feeling, so if they look stressed, that is why.

Garlic helps bolster the immune system in fish, and is supposed to help them heal and prevent future outbreaks.
Heat speeds up the ich life cycle, and if kept high enough long enough, eventually kills the free floating cysts in the water.
Salt helps with electolyte balance and reverse osmosis in the fish...makes it easier for them to absorb water. But too much will make their cells pop, because too much water gets in.

Good luck. I am sorry about your gourami.