Question about Treating the Tank with Meds

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Bethinla

Aquarium Advice Newbie
Joined
Sep 21, 2003
Messages
6
Location
los Angeles, CA.
Hi

I'm very new at all this. I'm fishie sitting for a a friend, whose currently serving in Iraq. Aprox. 4 mths before becoming active, he acquired a round coffee table aquarium (20-gal. I think) was housing 3 goldfish (2 Ryukin, 1 Crown red/white) 1 betta, and 3 three very small African dwarf aquatic frogs. I've had them now since the middle of April. He’s using a very fine sand for substrate, an underwater fluval Plus 3, that sits on the bottom of the tank, and a round green air stone attached to a Tetra tec AP 100. When he first brought it over, he put the water from home back in the tank when he set it up here. The water had a yellow tint to it. I did some research and found out the chemistry was all wrong, the PH was very very low, the NH was high and there was a little amonia in the tank. I finally got everything normal by doing a 20/25 % water change every other day. I have been continuing with a 20%water change once a week. And everything seemed fine for awhile, then 2 weeks ago a long gel like string, half of it was clear and half of it brownish orange in color appeared in the tank. The next day a froggie died, and I noticed after hovering over the tank for an hour, the Crown red/white appeared to have some scales missing along the dorsal fin. The LFS (petco), thinking it was intestinal blockage, suggested I change the froggies diet from sinking pellets, to frozen blood worms, and treat the tank with Melafix, so I did.

Then Friday I had to quarantine 1 of the Ryukins who appeared to have Dropsey. He/she was completely swollen with its scales sticking out, blood vessels showing along the sides, there was a small cottony white growth on his/her side, his breathing was labored, and he just sat at the bottom of the tank. I put him in a goldfish bowl, (all I had) with a little filter, treated him with Epsom salt and Maracyn-two, and had the water at 80. (goldfishvet.com recommendation, the pet store was unhelpful, Quote- “Gosh I don’t know anything about dropsey, The guy who works aquatics comes back from vacation Wednesday, you could come back then and talk to him about it.”) But I lost him last night anyway.

If dropsey is a symptom of the cause, how do I know what caused the dropsey? Do I treat the whole tank with the Maracyn or anything else, in case the other guys caught it, or to prevent them from getting a secondary infection from it? Is it safe for the froggies and the betta? Should I take the froggies out, then treat the tank? It’s hard to tell if the other guys are getting dropsey because their abdomens are naturally fat. Should I take them out and inspect them? I read your not suppose to net them, so how do ya get them out?

I hate this tank because it’s very difficult to examine the fish for other signs of secondary infection, or parasites. The only view I really have is from above, and if I lay on the ground and wait for them to pass by, but they usually don’t stay in one spot long enough. I may be just a little emotional from having my first fish die in saying this. But I really feel the guy who designed these things and decided it was an AQUARIUM should be hung from a tree upside down and flogged for the rest of his life. To me it just seems like fishie abuse. Maintaining the tank is five times the chore, there’s no good spot for a filter, the filter an aeration cause condensation on the glass top, obscuring the view from above, its almost very difficult to examine the fishies in the tank. It just sucks! Without serious modifications, I don’t see how one could keep aquatic life alive in this death trap. I guess I’m stuck with it til Bushie decides to give the UN more control in Iraq, so our boys can be relieved.

I’m worried that I’m over feeding, I usually have to put a lot of blood worms so the froggies and betta, have a chance to get some, before the goldfish swallow them all up. They eat up their flakes and everyone else’s food like it’s their last meal. Because of the heavy glass top, spot feeding is impossible. Any suggestions on this also would be a help!!

The last thing I want to happen is for him to come back (hopefully) from a War, and have to tell him all his pets died. So any help would be so very appreicated!!
 
Hiya and welcome to Aquariumadvice Bethinla

Oi. What a mess. Sounds like theres a bunch of things going on.

First and foremost, what are the current water parameters? One cause of dropsy is is poor water parameters. Even though you are doing water changes weekly, it may not be enough as that tank is sorta overcrowded for a 20g.

On that note, its recommended to have 10g apiece for each goldie (and I've read as much as 30g per goldie. Not sure I agree with quite that much LOL). Goldfish are considered VERY messy fish; they expel large amounts of ammonia waste both in respiration as well as in digestion. On the other hand 20g does sound rather small for a coffeetable tank; can you get us the parameters and we can figure out what size it is? Also, if he's a really really good friend, and you have some extra cash, I'd actually suggest picking up a small 5g tank with filter and heater, and moving the betta and the frogs into that. Bettas do not make good goldfish tankmates. Also, with that set-up you won't need to overfeed (which can really mess up a tank) as there won't be that competition for food.

On to the dropsy itself and the cotton looking growths. There are a number of causes as I think you know; not only poor water parameters, but viral, bacterial and injury, which cause the internal organs to shut down and the fish is unable to expel water from its system. My guess is, the cause was a combination of unclean water (containing nitrogenous waste) which stressed the fish n frogs enough to make them susceptible to infection. It sounds like that fish with the cotton growths had columnaris. Its not a fungus, although its also known as mouth fungus, but a bacterial infection caused by the flexibactor bacteria and the number one fish tank infection. I would add Maracyn to the Maracyn2 treatment you are currently using and treat the entire tank; a broad spectrum antibiotic is recommended for columnaris and I don't know if Maracyn2 is going to be effective enough. It didn't appear to be in the one goldfish's case. Plus its infectious. You can treat with both; they're made to be complimentary. I'd also do daily checks on water parameters, and water change anytime ammonia/nitrites show up as antibiotics will most likely muck up the nitrifying bacterial colonies.

Here you are doing a friend a favor and he's made it rather difficult LOL He may be helping support democracy, but he owes you as much as we owe him *grin*
 
Allivymar Thank you so very much for your reply. I had post my question in two other forums, at two other sites, and received no reply. Well except one, asking about my filter. I sat around all that day waiting for a reply from someone! The second you answered, I got straight to work! So thank you very much, for caring enough about these little guys, to give them some of your time!

Update: I have two more days of meds left, and I’m doing just what you suggested, the Maracyn and Maracyn- two treatments, along with some copper safe. I can’t tell if the scales on the Crown goldie are missing due to Ichs, because he’s white. Is there some way to tell? I moved the froggies out to a temporary 3.5gal. tank with a little penn-plax filter. I took the water from the tank in to compare the test results with my own. (this time not Petco) I found a store specializing in aquatics, that was open when I got off work, and everything was perfect. The guy there, thinks when I first got the tank and the water was unhealthy, that gave the bad guys time thrive, and find a host to infect. And that even though I did the constant water changes, bringing the water to par, that didn't heal the fishie's internal infection, it probably just helped to slow it down, by providing an adequate environment for the fish's immune system to aid in the fight. And had I known there was an infection when I was bringing the water to healthy and treated immediately, he may have lived. But with dropsy it still to hard to call. Also since it's quite difficult to know when the fishie has an internal infection, he thinks I should be alot easier on myself . LOL
He couldn't helpme with the frogs, he doesn't know much about them. Should I be treating the frogs with the maracyn-two?

About their living arrangement, The "table" is a very round retro design, like some one cut a bubble in half, I'm not sure how to give parameters for that. I can tell you the top is 36 inches across & wide, the bottom because it round, is much smaller, of course, I would say it 's about half the size of the top, and Its about 11 inches tall. The whole thing with the base and glass top stands about 15 inches high. However, in about a month all this will be meaningless!!!!

People have a tendency, when they come over, to just throw their keys or whatever ever they’re carrying on the table top, scaring the fish to death, they bump the tank and sometimes even throw their feet on top of it. These last couple months I've kinda grown a fondness for these guys, and just think they deserve a better home. I got to thinking about what you said regarding their living arrangement, and Jared over in Iraq. He’s a great guy, doing a great service. So I thought I should get him a welcome home gift for when he returns from hell. So I set to find Jared a new center piece for his apartment, and the fishies a new home. The hard part was finding something Jared would like, but I found a 40 gal octagon aquarium, that sits on a stand, not on the floor, sorta like this one. http://www.aquaticscapes.com/lagunatank11.html only it’s a little taller. I think it really nice. If Jared doesn’t like this, well then he’s just not getting these little guys back. :p

So a was wondering, If I create little environments in each part of the tank especially for that particular fish, do ya think it would work out? Like for example, I was thinking that because the tank is taller, and the frogs might feel uncomfortable traveling the distance to the surface amoung the other fish. I could make a higher level, about half way up along the back three panels, just for the frogs, and target feed with a turkey baster or whatever. Then just under that level, a place that the betta will find attractive and safe, with lots of plants and all, and then another place the goldfish find attractive. Do you think that would eliminate a lot of the competition for food? Or do ya think the frogs and betta should still stay separate? The betta has had a whole different attitude since the Goldfish passed away. With only two goldfish, he doesn’t hide so much , he’s all over the place in that thing now. I guess he doesn’t feel so out numbered any more.

The aquarium arrived Wednesday and I’m going to start the fishless cycling, Could you direct me to some good information on this, so I make sure I do it right?

And thank you very much again!
 
Bethinla:

You're welcome :) I did wonder where you got to. Most of us are horribly impatient for answers, me included LOL

Wow, no wonder those poor guys are stressed! I'd be on the edge too if someone was throwing things on my roof all the time, bumping into my house and putting their feet on my home. You are an AWESOME friend...I could use a buddy like you *grin* no one buys ME 40g tanks just to be nice LOL and that is a stunning tank. If it looks anything like that pic on the webpage those fish are going to be thrilled and look great in it.

On to the fish themselves. Chances are the missing scales were due to injury, possibly when the fish was scared by a set of keys or a foot flying by and zipping around the tank to escape. Ich won't remove scales. Sounds like that aquatic store you found has some really on the ball folk working there; I agree with their diagnosis. I have to admit I too am not very conversant on frogs; why not start a new post and ask specifically about them? I'm sure we have some folks on here who can give you some better info then I.

Also, you may try the environments, but don't be surprised if the fish and frogs ignore em completely LOL They have minds of their own and will stake out their own territories as they see fit, not necessarily as we see it. I had bought a hunk of driftwood with a cave in it for my plec as supposedly they want a dark place to hide during the day. The plec ignored the cave completely, and made his home hanging on the back of the driftwood. Go figure.

Lastly, fishless cycling. I've done it successfully, and I'll give you a site which will give you explicit directions, but I have a suggestion. If you can find a product called Bio-Spira, I'd use that instead. Its the only product on the market which instantly cycles a tank; its the only one which has the correct bacteria. I've used it 3 times successfully, although of course you'll want to keep on top of nitrogenous waste parameters as nothing is perfect and one of our regulars has had some minor probs with it (he did have some low but measurable levels of ammonia). I'll give you the url which explains it as well:

http://www.tomgriffin.com/aquamag/cycle2.html (this is THE webpage for fishless cycling)

http://www.marineland.com/products/mllabs/ML_biospira.asp (definitely click on the research link which will give you the tech info on Bio-Spira as well)

Good luck and keep us updated!
 
i m stress.... :x
This post all soooo longggg...

Stress,stress,stress...


LOL :D
 
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