Questions on Diseases

[Relic1882]

Hello again. I had a previous post called PArasites and fungus that this kind of follows up on. I think my fish have an internal bacteria infection and ick. I've been treating my tank daily with Maracyn-Two and a Wardley Ick Away and doing water changes every day or two. My pink gourami is acting a little better, and the white cloudy look that was over his eyes is just about gone. He still sits at the bottom of the tank though, but not nearly as much.

I just noticed last night that a platy had a white mark on him just under his top fin. I thought it was a fungus, but I tried to look closer and I thought it might be a wound from something. Today he died when I was at work and a couple other fish got to him before I found out.

All of my fish EXCEPT for the 2 parrot fish have ragged fins and I can't tell if they're getting any worse, although I don't think so. I don't think that it's fin rot because my friend who used to have a tank says fin rot will take out almost the whole fin in a few days or less.

My questions are am I doing the right thing in treating the problems, is my friend right and I don't have to worry about fin rot, and how long does it usually take for the fish in the tank to show major improvement before I can stop using meds. I've been using meds for 4 days now.

Oh, in case anyone needs them, these are up to date as of last night.

Ph 7.0
Ammonia 1.0 (I put a little detoxifier in to lower this)
Nitrite, Nitrate - I'm don't remember how exactly but they are both VERY low, or 0.

thanks for your time

 

[An t-iasg]

Hi again Relic1882,
Sorry about the platy but I'm glad to hear that the gourami is doing better.

Have you read the ich article here? http://www.aquariumadvice.com/showquestion.php?faq=2&fldAuto=32
A lot of people here have had success with the heat treatment for ich. Be careful to increase the temperature gradually, and find a way to increase water agitation, such as lowering the water level just a little so that the return filter flow can move the water around a little more to increase the oxygen level.

Are you treating in the main tank, or a QT tank? As far as I can tell, from this and your other posts, you are doing all you can for the fish. Don't get discouraged -- sometimes you have to treat for two courses of the medicine, sometimes lasting up to 10 days.

It's important to do your water changes to keep the parameters low. You're probably seeing an ammonia spike due to the antibiotics in the tank. Try to control this through water changes rather than the ammonia additive. If you're treating in QT, it isn't as much of an issue, but if you're treating in the tank, you don't want to use too many additives that can throw your tank off balance. If you bind too much ammonia to the additives, the bacteria will have nothing to eat, and will die that way also. It's a balancing act -- keeping the fish away from the ammonia, but also not removing all of the good bacteria's food source.

About the fin rot -- I have seen the fins eroded all the way to the body. It seems like you've caught the finrot in time, and hopefully it won't get worse. When you see the first signs of finrot, you should treat, as it can often get worse in a short amount of time. Once, my previous betta was fine. I looked in the tank an hour later, and his tail was nothing but strings. One of my bettas now played in the sponge filter bubbles until he tore his tail fin. Soon it had a clear "healing edge" on it, not like the black edges of finrot, so I didn't treat him, and he was fine.

One thing that I can think of that brings on finrot is stress -- stress over poor water conditions, either water parameters, or temperature. I know that bettas are particularly stressed by a temperature that's too cold. They like to be at 80 or 82 degrees. Since they are a labyrinth fish like a betta, it's possible that the gourami is stressed by temperature. Labyrinth fish need warm air to draw into their labyrinth.

It seems like you're on the right track -- keep watching the fish and the parameters, and let us know how everything works out!

 

[Relic1882]

I keep my temperature about 78 degrees. Is that good for the mix of fish I have in there? And what is the "healing edge" of a fin? I don't know what it looks like. My fish never had any black edges so I guess it's not fin rot that's bothering them, just the bacteria infections, right? I'm glad to hear from someone that I'm doing things right. I never had to deal with this issue when I had the 15gal tank. Thanks a lot for your help!

 

[An t-iasg]

I did a quick check of your fish on Liveaquaria.com, and it looks like 78 degrees is a good temperature for your mix of fish. Live Aquaria.com has good descriptions of fish, their food and pH needs, tank size, etc., if you need to know something quickly.

My bettas always had black strings or edges with their bouts of finrot. Maybe because they have so much color in their fins? I don't know, but I would still call an eroded or ragged fin, finrot, treat with antibiotics, and try to find the cause, especially if it is affecting more than one fish in the tank. Finrot caught early is usually easy to treat, and I would look at it as a warning sign that things are not right with the tank. If not treated, it could get worse -- the fish could have more signs of a bacterial infection, and then it may become harder to treat.

I'm glad the gourami is perking up. You said he's sitting at the bottom -- is he able to get to the water surface? Labyrinth fish need to breathe at the surface of the water also, in addition to their gills. If the gourami is resting at the bottom, that's ok -- my bettas do that too -- but he should be able to get to the surface. If necessary, to make it easier for him, you could lower the water level a little, so he doesn't have to swim as far up to reach the surface.

Some other things to think about for this tank -- what kind of pleco do you have? Some plecos get 12 inches long, and plecos are big waste producers! What kind of filtration do you have? I have seen angelfish about the size of a quarter, but depending on what kind it is, they can get pretty big also. This tank may become overcrowded in a year or two. Hopefully someone else can help with that, since I don't have plecos or angels.

The "healing edge" of a fin is what I call the newly-formed membrane surrounding the cut and frayed edges of the fin. The finrot erodes the fin back, or takes a chunk out of it, and within a few days, this new, clear membrane grows that appears to bind the ragged edges together. The fin then grows back to the way it was, and the color comes back to the new fin or piece of fin. This is the way it happens with my bettas. It's possible that it happens a little differently with different fish. Since bettas have long fins, it takes my bettas about 3 or 4 months to grow out a fin, especially the tail fin.

 

[Menagerie]

I think my fish have an internal bacteria infection and ick. I've been treating my tank daily with Maracyn-Two and a Wardley Ick Away and doing water changes every day or two.

Are you still following this? If so, stop using the Ick Away. Too many meds will do more harm than good. An t-iasg pointed you to the FW ich article and I will atest that it works! I am currently treating a tank of rams, Badis, a pleco and pygmy cats. Start using the temp and salt treatment ASAP and keep up on the water changes. When fish are ill and the bio filtration is taken out due to meds, you will need to do PWC daily.

 

[Relic1882]

Hey thanks a lot for the help! Sorry about my signiture, I haven't had the chance to update yet. The pleco died a week ago. I use a Regent spillover filter. I think it does around 160gph. I will stop using ick away and I have been doing daily water changes. So the best treatment for ick is to raise the salt level by 1 ppm daily and slowly raise the water temp? I haven't seen my fish get any worse since I've started using the meds. They actually seem to be doing a better. The only fish in the tank that I've seen the little white spots on is the one platy, and he's acting fine too. So at this point would I be best just keeping things the way they are, or should I discontinue the Ick away for good?

I've been using Maracyn-Two for almost a week now and the fish that were acting up really bad are all doing fine. Should I stick with the salt and temp treatment for ick and put new activated carbon back in?

I really appreciate the help guys. You've been real good to me since I joined this site and I thank you for helping me save my fish from disaster

 

[Relic1882]

Oh I forgot. How much aquarium salt is needed to raise the salt levels by 1 ppm per day as the ick treatment needs?

 

[Relic1882]

Ok, today I have a new problem. My gouramis all of a sudden have become worse and all 3 of them are having a lot of problems getting to the top for air, so I lowered the water level, but they're still struggling a lot and I'm still treating with the same meds. I'm not sure what could be causing them to do this. They all seemed to be doing much better and all of a sudden they're really bad. All of the other fish are just fine though. Any suggestions?

I'm doing daily water changes and making sure my ammonnia, nitrates and nitrites are low. pH is good too. I'm lost.

 

[An t-iasg]

I'm sorry to hear this. Ich can also affect the gills, where it's not easy to see the white spots. The raised temps can also cause oxygen depletion of the water -- warmer water holds less oxygen. Keep the water level lowered so the gouramis can get to the surface to use their labyrinth organ, and this will also keep the water agitated to increase the oxygenation. How long have you been using the antibiotic? I would discontinue it now -- it may be a cause of stress too, since they are also dealing with the ich. Too many meds in the water can also have lower the dissolved oxygen level.

I would usually recommend to lower ammonia with water changes and not chemicals, but in this case where your fish are visibly stressed, use some of the ammonia detoxifier if necessary. Rising ammonia levels on top of irritated gills is not good. With the ich, you need to do water changes daily, to remove the ich at its lifecycle when it's free-swimming.

You want to raise the salt level by 1 ppm a day. The dose of salt to add is 7.6 grams per gallon, and this will raise the SG by 2 ppm or 1.002 or 1.003 SG. (this is in the ich article) 7.6 grams is roughly equal to 1 1/2 teaspoons per gallon. For 1 ppm a day, add 3/4 teaspoon of salt per gallon per day. I got the conversion from this site: http://www.exploratorium.edu/cooking/convert/measurements.html
A hydrometer is also recommended to measure the concentration more accurately. These are only about $6 at the lfs.

So, what I would do is to try to attack the ich and don't use the antiobiotics at this point.

 

[Relic1882]

Ok thanks a lot. I'll discontinue all antibiotics because the fish all seem ok except for the gouramis. All 3 of them stay huddled in the back corner behind a plant. The pink one still sits up straight, but the neon and flame dwarf both take turns laying on their sides at the bottom, but they're not dead yet. I'll up the salt level, get a hydrometer and keep the water level low. I'm doing daily water changes and I'll put new activated carbon in the filter. Does all of this sound good and correct? Thanks again.

 

[Relic1882]

Well, as to add more information, my neon blue gourami just died and the flame dwarf looks like he's on the way. The kissing pink one still stays around the bottom of the tank like he's been for days. I think I can see small white spots that are probably ick, so I'm following up on the way you're telling me to treat it without meds.

 

[An t-iasg]

I'm sorry about the gourami My previous bettas were at the bottom like that before they died.

Yes, run some carbon to remove the old meds and treat the ich with the heat/salt method. I think that's the best way to treat ich, and a lot of people here have said it worked for them. What is your water temperature? It should be at 87 or 88 degrees. I would hold that temperature for two weeks after you see the last spot.

I've also read some articles that say to treat ich with heat and a half dose of ich med. I was wondering if you should do this, but I honestly think your fish have been stressed enough with meds this week. These ich meds can be very harsh themselves. Plus, as you'll remember from the article, there is a very small window of time in which the ich parasite is susceptible to the meds.

I hope things turn around for you soon!

 

[Relic1882]

Ok, something new now. My pink gourami and the flame dwarf are staying down at the bottom a lot in the corner, and the flame dwarf stays on his side. I think he's going to be a goner, but he's been like this for 3 or 4 days now, and when he wants to, he swims perfectly fine to the very top to get some air. I'm confused. Are they just taking time out to heal or something? Both of them go to the top for air and the pink kissing is going back and forth through the tank more often, but the flame is always laying on his side unless he gets air, where he acts normal. They both still don't seem to be eating.

 

[An t-iasg]

My previous betta lay at the bottom, or on his side, like that for a week before he died. It was terrible to watch. But then another betta was very sick and didn't move for a week. All of a sudden he started swimming and built a bubble nest! I know it's hard to see the fish like this and I always think that surely I should be able to fix whatever it is, because of all the meds we have available to us, and information like this website! But sometimes we just can't fix it...

I know you've done all you can. Keep up the ich treatment (how is that going?) and don't give up! Your fish could surprise you and bounce right back!

 

[Relic1882]

Ok, for some reason my last post I put on yesterday isn't here. All 4 platies have died, and the Neon blue has been gone for a while. Out of nowhere my pink parrot fish died. My 2 angels and 2 gouramis and 1 blue parrot is all that remains, but in the past few days, my gouramis have showed major improvements! The pink one is all over now and he only stays down the corner once in a while, and the flame dwarf is swimming all over the tank now much better and he seems to be 90% better! I think I've beaten the diseases in my tank with the salt treatment. I couldn't do the temp. treatment with the ick because my heater doesnt seem to want to work that hard and I can't get the temp past 82, but nevertheless my fish seem great now. Both gouramis are eating now. My only question is, the flame dwarf seems to go down to the corner again when the light gets turned on. No biggy, cause I leave it off during the day anyway, but could he just be afraid or might he still be sick or recovering?

Thanks for all the advice guys. I couldn't have beaten the problem without your assistance.

 

[Relic1882]

BTW I'm using a 100W heater. That should have been plenty to heat my tank right? It's a cheapo that came with the kit. Keeps my water 78 perfectly, but just can't go higher than like 82-84. Oh well, I plan on buying a better one down the road, but it works fine for now.

 

[An t-iasg]

I'm glad your fish are getting better! As long as the flame dwarf is swimming around, he should be ok. Is he eating? Different fish have different behaviors, so if he's swimming and eating I wouldn't worry too much about it. Maybe that corner makes a nice hiding place or the light is not too strong in that area, so he likes it there.

About your temperature -- the general recommendation for a heater is 5 watts per gallon. That means you could use a 150 watt heater also. A lot of members here like Ebo Jagar or Visi-Therm Deluxe heaters. I have a Visi-Therm. I set it at 80 degrees and it never varies from that temperature. As I was setting the tank up, before the betta was in there, I set it at 88 degrees and it got to that temperature too!

If your heater is keeping the tank at 78 degrees now, that's fine. If you need to raise the temperature again for an ich treatment, you could leave that heater in place and add a 50 watt heater. The general rule is 5 watts/gallon, but it also depends on how much you need to raise the water temperature above room temp. Each manufacturer also has a table to give you a guideline for watts/gallon. Here are some links:

http://www.drsfostersmith.com/Produ...d=3852&R=6328&N=2004+112984+113565&in_merch=1

http://www.drsfostersmith.com/Produ...d=3858&R=8902&N=2004+112984+113565&in_merch=1

Here's another chart showing the watts recommended to increase the temperature a desired amount:
http://www.thatpetplace.com/Product...eaters/T1/F45+0062+0023/EDP/933/Itemdy00.aspx

It may look like this last link gives watts/gallon that may not be quite enough to give you the temp. that you want, especially for the larger aquariums. I have never had a large aquarium, but I do know that these Visi-Therms are powerful heaters! If you keep the 5 watts/gallon guideline in mind, you can't go wrong. If you need more watts for ich treatment, for example, or your room temperature is on the cool side, just add a second heater.

 

[Relic1882]

Thanks for the help! They seem to be ok right now. Everything is going much better and they all seem happy again, except for the one staying in the corner sometimes. Thanks for the help

 

[An t-iasg]

You're welcome! I'm glad everything is starting to get better for you. I think I was editing one of the links as you were posting I was just trying to say that although 5 watts/gallon is a good guideline, each manufacturer has their own chart, and you can customize with a 100 watt and a 50 watt if you need to.