Questions regarding medications

[tdp]

Tank is cycled. Water condition is good.
One of my panda cories developed fungus on his fin. I tried treating him by wiping the fungus off with Qtip and light salt baths and he didn't make it.

Few days later, another one showed fungus so I'm not risking the previous method again and treating the whole tank this time with Pimafix and Melafix combined.

A few questions:
Does the medication kill all bacteria and destroy the cycle?
Are they safe for plants?
Should I do a water change after 7 days of treatment as instructed or can I do a small change every day?

 

[Delapool]

I've never noticed a problem with it un-cycling a tank or killing off plants. Why do you want to change some water every day out of interest?

 

[aqua_holic]

I've never lost a cycle because of medications. The Pima and Melafix aren't really medications anyway - they are more remedies. I personally have next to no faith in them. All too often people use them when they should be using real medications. Of course that's not to say that they don't work at all, but there are definite limitations to what they can do.

 

[tdp]

I've never noticed a problem with it un-cycling a tank or killing off plants. Why do you want to change some water every day out of interest?

I just thought with continuous doses and no water changes might be too much stress for them. Then I found out that those aren't antibiotics.

Sadly the infected cory died within hours after I spot the fungus. Gunna keep dosing Melafix and Pimafix as a preventative for the remaining ones.

What would you suggest I use for fungus or any other type of infections on scaleless fish like cories? I haven't had good experience with salt treatments. I heard good things about Tetra fungus guard but the label says it's not safe for scaleless fish.

 

[Delapool]

I just thought with continuous doses and no water changes might be too much stress for them. Then I found out that those aren't antibiotics.



Sadly the infected cory died within hours after I spot the fungus. Gunna keep dosing Melafix and Pimafix as a preventative for the remaining ones.



What would you suggest I use for fungus or any other type of infections on scaleless fish like cories? I haven't had good experience with salt treatments. I heard good things about Tetra fungus guard but the label says it's not safe for scaleless fish.

I've found both need to be well mixed (pima more so) when adding so the fish don't swim through a chemical cloud. Somewhat less certain on this, but I've found a lighter dose just as useful since they only really treat low-level infections for me. Not success with columnaris for example. So if no luck after using for a few days (or even a day), I go to a stronger med. MB I'd suggest for fungus.

 

[BBradbury]

Medications

Hello tdp...

Putting chemicals into the tank water is never a good idea. You don't know how effective the meds are for your particular fish. There's a chance of harming your fish, plants or even killing off the good bacteria. The best thing to do is begin a more aggressive water change routine. Work up to the point you're removing and replacing half the tank water weekly. Adding a couple of teaspoons of standard aquarium for every 5 gallons of new, treated tap water salt is beneficial, but not required. Plant the tank with more floating plants to help steady the water chemistry between water changes.

Feed a variety of flaked, freeze dried and frozen foods. A bit of minced garlic works as a natural antibiotic. Feed sparingly though, sickly fish aren't likely to eat much and you don't want uneaten food to foul the water.

The main thing is, keep the tank water clean.

B

 

[tdp]

Hello tdp...

Putting chemicals into the tank water is never a good idea. You don't know how effective the meds are for your particular fish. There's a chance of harming your fish, plants or even killing off the good bacteria. The best thing to do is begin a more aggressive water change routine. Work up to the point you're removing and replacing half the tank water weekly. Adding a couple of teaspoons of standard aquarium for every 5 gallons of new, treated tap water salt is beneficial, but not required. Plant the tank with more floating plants to help steady the water chemistry between water changes.

Feed a variety of flaked, freeze dried and frozen foods. A bit of minced garlic works as a natural antibiotic. Feed sparingly though, sickly fish aren't likely to eat much and you don't want uneaten food to foul the water.

The main thing is, keep the tank water clean.

B

I'm already doing most of what is said here regularly. However, I found mixed results from people who use salt for a cories tank.
Also I'd like to have a strong medication on hand since my fungus infected cories usually don't last more than two days for improved tank condition to make any difference.

 

[J.Mcpeak]

Normally with scale less fish half dose. Cory are not true scale less fish like rays or sturgeon, they have scutes, formed from the skin but tough like scales. Armour plate.

If I'm unsure with a med (normally on my clown loaches) I empty half the tank and dose the remaining volume, at the first sign of any issues, I can very quickly dilute the meds by refilling the tank.

 

[aqua_holic]

Half doses of meds are controversial as it allows for resistances to be built up against the medication, all while possibly not providing the required therapeutic value to be effective. I like your method of being prepared to dilute the dosage, but I would go at it from the other side. Administer the full dose and observe. If the fish start to have problems, you can do 25% water change to dilute and if needed a second water change to dilute further. IMO every effort should be made to dose at as close to full strength as possible.

 

[J.Mcpeak]

Are you sure? This is my view based on my experience.

Half doses of meds are controversial as it allows for resistances to be built up against the medication, all while possibly not providing the required therapeutic value to be effective. I like your method of being prepared to dilute the dosage, but I would go at it from the other side. Administer the full dose and observe. If the fish start to have problems, you can do 25% water change to dilute and if needed a second water change to dilute further. IMO every effort should be made to dose at as close to full strength as possible.

I'm just following the instructions on the packet. Where it advises half doses for sensitive species or for whatever reason then that is how I proceed. I have not made any special circumstance for corydoras, they get a full dose with no observable ill affects directly relating to medication in all cases so far.

If I administer a full dose in a tank full of scaleless/sensitive species I would expect issues. If I have been forewarned then I am accountable. I'm not sure how I'd handle knowing I killed my prized shoal with plain bad practice.

So far I've been ok using this method.
(Same shoal growing from 1 fish 9 years ago to 11 fish 6 years ago, with no losses and no super strains)
To me that means I've dealt with all ailments successfully up to now, using the same meds and practices.

Really it's easier to add more medicine to the required dose as a 50% refill is a lot of effort for my set up. That will need further dilution if the problems associated with overdose persist. So we are now into days of labor. No thanks!
(A pair of 50% water changes back to back takes four days with my current set up, then I'm behind on other systems so I potentially put other live stock at risk)
I call it water management. You may not need to consider more than 1 tank.

(Time for the rocket science!) 1-1000ml vs 1-100gal.
However you look at it, it's easier to add meds.
2fingers easily picks up a dosing cup/syringe, predilution container.
2fingers struggles with a full bucket.
2fingers cannot manage 25litres/5.5 gal. container you need 2arms.

Whatever size system I can't see the benefit of the "hard way"

Half doses are sensible for people with either very large systems or very delicate/sensitive fish.

(A full dose means carefully measured to the tank volume inc. filter capacity)

Carbon works but it isn't as fast as a direct water change, it just gives peace of mind when using mixed meds within the suggested time period, such as wrong diagnoses in a QT environment.

Another point to note, not relating to fish meds but their environment. Some algae remedies when used at full dose can and will strip the water of oxygen quickly suffocating all of your stock, you will not have time to remedy the situation.

 

[aqua_holic]

I've seen many accounts of half dosages not being enough, and the fish died. It's the same difference as doing a full dose and having them die, so I don't know how one practice is any better or worse than another in that regard.

With any course of treatment, the fish needs to survive in order for it to be successful. Both full doses and half doses have potential to be lethal to stock, and chances are good that fish will die without any dosage.... So one must do what they feel is best for their fish, which is not a bad practice. It's not always so cut and dry - it's entirely possible for something to survive the half dose, unbeknownst to the keeper, only to return again with greater tolerance for the treatment, putting not only your prized school back at risk but everything else in the tank as well.

There's very little black and white in this hobby, and everything is interconnected. Decisions are made based on varying depths and breadths of the information considered, so chosen practices can vary greatly.



It takes you 4 days to do two 50% water changes?? I don't envy you in the least. Takes me between 10 and 20 minutes to do a 50% change. That's probably the defining difference in our viewpoints. Your way would definitely be better for those who cannot easily change the water.

 

[J.Mcpeak]

I've seen many accounts of half dosages not being enough, and the fish died. It's the same difference as doing a full dose and having them die, so I don't know how one practice is any better or worse than another in that regard.

With any course of treatment, the fish needs to survive in order for it to be successful. Both full doses and half doses have potential to be lethal to stock, and chances are good that fish will die without any dosage.... So one must do what they feel is best for their fish, which is not a bad practice. It's not always so cut and dry - it's entirely possible for something to survive the half dose, unbeknownst to the keeper, only to return again with greater tolerance for the treatment, putting not only your prized school back at risk but everything else in the tank as well.

There's very little black and white in this hobby, and everything is interconnected. Decisions are made based on varying depths and breadths of the information considered, so chosen practices can vary greatly.



It takes you 4 days to do two 50% water changes?? I don't envy you in the least. Takes me between 10 and 20 minutes to do a 50% change. That's probably the defining difference in our viewpoints. Your way would definitely be better for those who cannot easily change the water.

I'm glad this is not descending into anarchy like some threads do!
That's my first point, so fair play to you
Actually you make a fair and valid reason about inadequate measures but it's only very few meds that specify anything other than a full dose.
(Not a conflict! Just noting!)
For those dead fish my questions would be;
Did you lower the temp or increase aeration?
Were you still using carbon in your filter?
Dosage accuracy?
Admin accuracy? (Oh I missed a day, I forgot) DONT SAY SORRY!
(More often than not, fish death is a direct result of the keepers failings)
Sad but true.
The fish got ill due to inadequate maintainence so I treated it with X remedy and my fish died anyway, the meds didn't work. (Keeper error)
I say that because generally I've had good results using medications but I'm clinical when the time comes.

What I'm suggesting is that if half a dose is ok then push up the dose if possible to a full dose as required. In some cases this isn't possible, this is that grey area you mention. It's a real thing worthy of note! (Extra points for you here)

With the half dose you are looking at the fish reaction to the meds not as a means to treat the condition. Some meds are not tolerated by some species. Off the top of my head it's only ich treatment and that can't do anything to ich on a fish anyway, you're treating the watercourse.
More grey! (That's why this is in my sig )
I am on both sides of the wall!

Yes, I'm afraid it takes that long on one tank, I have "normal" tanks too! I'm not completely mad! Really it's water production time that slows things down.
At the moment I'm right on the edge of capacity with my RO unit, if I had a higher GPD output it would take half that time but I'd need to sit up all night watching and I've just stopped doing that!


(Just back from the fish house, this part is not off the top of my head)
Malachite green (ich worms etc. that's quite poisonous!)
Has notes on scaleless and cartilaginous fish and crustacean/echinoderm
Also has notes on filtration method, half dose for certain filter types and aquarium age, very powerful stuff!
Plenty of online caution with this, pages of info everywhere.

Formaldehyde, needs no introduction. Not good for you!
Has no notes for fish or filters. (Internal bacteria)
Toxic to some aquatic life.
Algae, protozoa, and other unicellular organisms are relatively
sensitive to formaldehyde, with acute lethal concentrations ranging from
0.3 to 22 mg/litre. Aquatic invertebrates showed a wide range of
responses; some crustaceans were the most sensitive, with median
effective concentration (EC50) values ranging from 0.4 to
20 mg/litre. In 96-h tests on several fish species, the LC50 of
formaldehyde for adults ranged from a minimum of about 10 mg/litre to a
maximum of several hundred mg/litre; most species showed LC50 values
in the range of 50-100 mg/litre. The responses of various species of
amphibians are similar to those of fish, with median acute lethal
concentrations (LC50) ranging from 10 to 20 mg/litre for a 72-h exposure.


Octozin (these are heavy tablets)
No active ingredients listed anywhere, packet or online.
They change your water considerably, noted TDS spike in use.
Harmless to filters.
(Definitely worth carbon filtration post use)

Melafix, melaleuca oil (tea tree oil)
Naturally occurring antimicrobial/anti fungi
Known effectiveness. No listed side effects.

Acriflavine hydrochloride, anti fungus/anti bacterial external
Can be lethal to fish and aquatic organisms.
Chronic aquatic toxicity.

Acriflavine alone is an antiseptic. Similar effects to acriflavine hydrochloride.

That's it, medical cabinet is empty!
Most of these will kill the organism before the fish. Some fish disagree!

Many of my fish have led longer and better lives than they would in the wild but I am responsible like so many for killing fish.
In the early days it was simple mistakes, nowadays, it's a real mistake, but still, it's my fault if the fish dies young.
Some fish it was disease with no reason why?
(Perfect water, no other fish affected)
For others, I am to blame. (Wrong meds, late diagnoses etc. my fault)

(& Whiskey)

 

[aqua_holic]

Reading over your post, I find myself thinking about the prolific warnings on forums about Pima and Melafix and anabantoids, yet there is no warning whatsoever on the bottle. Or on the website.

Often it's really, really difficult to attribute fish death to any one thing. There are just too many known and unknown variables to consider. Some people can do everything "wrong" and enjoy success, and others can do everything "right" and struggle to keep them alive. In most cases we just have to live with probabilities.

 

[J.Mcpeak]

Must say I've kept bichir which were treated with melafix.
One jumped ship the other died of worms. Not the same type of fish though.

I found this;
The Puffer Forum • View topic - Melafix and bettas/labyrinth fish

Then I went on a mission!

Melafix & Pimafix effect on Obligate Air Breathers? [Archive] - MonsterFishKeepers.com

Scaremongering.

Update Regarding Labyrinth Fish And Melafix - 75644

Incorrect dosages, user error. Follow all the links and it pretty much ties to overdosing causes fatalities.

Really you can find any answer you want on the net.
It's hard to find confirmed scientifically backed research on the subject.
(They do now make betta fix, that's almost proof!)

So that's another very valid point. I have no experience with any anabantoid.

MORE GREY!
I've just read the melafix bottle, it says medication and gives a dosage. It doesn't say DO NOT OVERDOSE and the only health information is human related.
(If you peel off the label it boldly states "is safe for even the most delicate species")

I wonder if dispersal is the cause? Sometimes betta tanks are not even tanks! Very hard to dose accurately. I wonder how many of the "melafix killed my..." crowd had a proper set up in the first place?

Perhaps here, salt might actually be useful! Or less fatal at least. That's if it can be used on the issue at all.

One things for sure, very few people admit error.

Despite all that, another good point.
I only disagree with the start of the last bit.
It's actually not that difficult to at least decide that ill health or old age killed a fish.
Performing an autopsy is different.

Old age is good, ill health is ok IF you are on top with your maintenance.
It died of ill health (but I didn't really look after them properly then I wedged in a load of this "stuff" and my fish died) That's not on! That's user error.
(I blame the medicine!)

04:42, goodnight!

 

[aqua_holic]

There is a very common misunderstanding about what bettafix is. It's often said that bettafix is a watered down version, but that's only a half truth and the half that's true is not used properly. Yes, bettafix is watered down. However, a larger dosage is administered. The therapeutic value of both is exactly the same. Bettafix was created for the sole purpose of making dosing tanks of less than 10 gallons easier and safer.

 

[J.Mcpeak]

Betta fix is a watered down version of melafix, designed to assist in the prevention of overdosing fish (targeted at anabantoid species)
This is for any volume of system, it's targeted at the genus.
This means API recognise the potential overdosing issues.

I've done some reading on this today.
(I'm just posting links but they took time to read/analyse etc.)

It seems that a lot of betta issues start with poor care and a lot of betta owners think that proper maintenance in the first instance would have prevented the issues negating the need for any meds at all. It is too late for some people who then move on from bad care to medication and continued bad care which usually results in death.

This article,
What do we know about BettaFix?
Led me here,
Melafix, Pimafix, Bettafix Study - Betta Disease Diagnosis and Treatment - UltimateBettas

The last link is a data collection from betta owners, it's quite useful.
Post 27 is certainly food for thought!

I went over several other sites but these two cleared it up for me.
Mela fix should be used with caution on anabantoid species.

Proper care would see your fish healthy and you wouldn't need (any)fix.
This is not conclusive by any means but it does shed some light on the topic.

 

[aqua_holic]

Betta fix is a watered down version of melafix, designed to assist in the prevention of overdosing fish (targeted at anabantoid species)
This is for any volume of system, it's targeted at the genus.
This means API recognise the potential overdosing issues.

.

Sorry but this is a little off. Bettafix was made for dosing tiny tanks. Has nothing at all to do with species, other than the fact that people keep bettas in tiny tanks. Yes it's designed to deliver more precise dosages, but as I said the therapeutic value is exactly the same. There is the same concentration of active ingredient in the tank per volume for both products, even though there is less active ingredient in the bottle per volume with the bettafix. It is not targeted at any species, but at tank volumes. API recognized a need in the marketplace - it's difficult to administer a 1/10th dose to a 1 gallon tank. Or an even smaller dose to a smaller tank. Yes it has to do with overdosing, but that has nothing to do with the species.

Of course this all comes straight from the horses mouth - I had contacted API and discussed all this with a representative.

Think of it like alcohol. You can do one shot of 151 or you can do 2 shots of regular Bacardi - both will get you to the same place though one is more potent than the other.

Like I had said, the correct information (bettafix being watered down) is being used incorrectly (the administered concentration is not any weaker).

 

[Delapool]

I do wonder if people got careless accidentally as I see plenty of references to mela and pima being better as they are 'natural'. And it is colourless as well in tank so you can't see how it disperses. Personally I think it needs the same care in dosing as any med, possibly more so.

Other thought that has crossed my mind is if these can be more or less effective / dangerous at a particular ph or water hardness. I've seen nothing to suggest that though.

 

[aqua_holic]

I think you can be sure that the company has done extensive scientific research developing the product - it's easy enough to ask them. They would know.

 

[J.Mcpeak]

Sorry but this is a little off. Bettafix was made for dosing tiny tanks. Has nothing at all to do with species, other than the fact that people keep bettas in tiny tanks. Yes it's designed to deliver more precise dosages, but as I said the therapeutic value is exactly the same. There is the same concentration of active ingredient in the tank per volume for both products, even though there is less active ingredient in the bottle per volume with the bettafix. It is not targeted at any species, but at tank volumes. API recognized a need in the marketplace - it's difficult to administer a 1/10th dose to a 1 gallon tank. Or an even smaller dose to a smaller tank. Yes it has to do with overdosing, but that has nothing to do with the species.

Of course this all comes straight from the horses mouth - I had contacted API and discussed all this with a representative.

Think of it like alcohol. You can do one shot of 151 or you can do 2 shots of regular Bacardi - both will get you to the same place though one is more potent than the other.

Like I had said, the correct information (bettafix being watered down) is being used incorrectly (the administered concentration is not any weaker).

The administered concentration may not weaker but it is more difficult to overdose than the concentrated version.
An extra ml of betta will make little difference.
An extra ml of mela will make a big difference.
An extra ml of pond strength mela mill make a massive difference.
Logically this is exaggerated in smaller volumes of water.
1ml overdose in 1 litre vs 1ml overdose in 10 litres of any product.
10 times the difference, so I think you may be wrong.
The only difference is the product has been pre diluted.

The general consensus seems to suggest that strong concentrations have an effect on the labyrinth organ of anabantoid species.
Betta fix was designed for Bettas as they recognised the potential issues here.
(Named after the most popular species, that's all)

You mention alcohol, apparently melaleuca behaves like a solvent in the labyrinth organ. (Take a lungful of heavy solvent) that's what the fish feel. All anabantoids share this lung, how is it possible that this product isn't designed for the genus?

Definitive guide to Bettafix/Melafix/Pond Melafix - Tropical Discussion - Tropical Fish Forums

(Currently engaged with API technical dept. if they get back to me I will post the proceedings should you desire)