Sick Labs

[kwest]

Just found your site off rec.aquaria so I thought I'd give you guys a shot at my problem. I have a 55 gallon freshwater tank with Yellow Labs. I purchased the tank with babies about six months ago. I think i have about 24 labs, 1 pleco, 2 SAE's. The babies are really growing and a couple have reached 3 inches - most are still 2 inches or less. I consider myself a good "housekeeper" with good water conditions, emperor 400 filter, regular water changes, good ph, RO water, Ammonia/Nitrites/ Nitrates levels zero, etc. However, I continue to see a fish die off every several weeks. They just get solitary, breathing rate rises, then they die. There are no visible signs of disease on any fish. Any thoughts? Is this survival of the fittest? Too many fish in 55 gallon? Same species don't like to live together?

I'm cycling a 30 gallon now and plan on moving 4 or 5 of the largest fish to see if they'll reproduce as well as alleviating the overcrowding issue in the 55 gallon.

Any thoughts would be appreciated.

Kim :?

 

[fishfreek]

I feel really stupid but I have to ask for further clarification as to what a "lab" is in relation to a freshwater fish.

I personally deal more with saltwater but I have had freshwater for a few years prior to saltwater.

How big are these labs? I belive I remember that the general rule for freshwater is 1" of fish per gal of water. So you would have 55" worth of fish to work with. If they where all at 2" then you would have 48" worth of labs.

Since you say your tank has no ammonia in it I have to guess that if they are suffering from higher rates of breathing then it could be that they are suffering from lack of oxygen. Aside from your emperor 400 do you have any other water movement at the surface?

BTW, if you got pics or can take pics of your tank please post it so we can all see. It gives us a better idea what your working with.

 

[kwest]

Fishfreek,

"Yellow Labs" - Labidochromis caeruleus - African Cichlids

I have no other circulation in the tank other than the emperor 400.
Also, after just inspecting the fish again tonight, one does have what seems to be a gash on its side. Maybe I have a bully in the tank?

Kim

 

[fishfreek]

Ok,

Thanks for the clarification.

I know we have a few cichlid people here so I hope they will read this tommrow and get back with you on some more helpful advice.


I do know cichlids are agressive but thats about all i know when it comes to them.

 

[reefrunner69]

This will continue to occur until there is a more manageable amount of fish in that tank. African cichlids are a pretty large fish, although Labs don't get to big. They are also highly aggressive, what you are seeing is darwinism at it's finest....There is a term used when keeping cichlids, dither fish, dither fish are targets for the cichlids to keep them from hammering each other and they also give the cichlids cues on how to behave. If the dither fish are acting stress free the cichlids know everything is OK, if they are swimming for cover the cichlids are more tenuous. Make sure your tank is aquascaped properly, Lake Malawi is a rocky lake and the fish will prefer a rocky aquascape with plenty of caves and places to hide.
Similar to this....

Also make sure the PH is between 8.2 and 8.4, with some salt added to the water to make these fish happy.

 

[CRaZeeeBiTcHisH]

sickly labs

just a question....do you use ALL ro water? if you do, that could be your problem. I am far from an expert on africans, but here goes...they come from hard, alkaline waters....personally, i can't think of any reason to use ro water at all with them,although i may be wrong, if you have hard tap water, they will be so excited! maybe if you have just liquid rock coming out of there, maybe you would need a little ro water, but i would watch the levels closely. Have you measured your carbonate and general hardness? The way I understand it is the ro water functions as sort of a sponge--it soaks up minerals and such from the fish, guess it is maybe akin to osmosis at it's best...so anyways, your fish can't sustain the levels they already have, much less gain anything from the water.IIRC correctly, most africans are comfy in the range of 8-8.5. If what you have are yellow lab cichlids, their natural environment would be lake malawi in africa--extremely large-yellow labs only occupy a small portion from what i have read on the net--- at least by my little standards. I know they do sell african cichlid salts, but i don't use them so i can't tell you much about that aspect, but they should be sufficient. As you are new to fishkeeping, cichlids can be a challenge, but they are so interesting! My suggestion would be to get some test kits and check your alkalinity (kh) and your general hardness (gh) and go from there. There is a lot of good info on the net about the malawi cichlids.If you don't already have it, but I suspect you do, get a pH kit while you are there. You may have some disputes going on, but you should see injuries on some fish to indicate if you have a bully. Yellow labs are supposed to be a more docile african...of course individuals will vary just as we ppl do. I suspect your fish are just very stressed by their current water parameters and after you check all of those and get your salts and all back in, i think you will have much better luck! sounds like you really are putting the effort into doing your best, so you should be fine. If you do make changes to your current water, make sure you do it slowly to let them adjust to the new conditions as they have tried their best to acclimate to the opposite...I would go verrrrry slowly, but i am pretty paranoid. Food for thought--powerheads are excellent, you would probably benefit by having the extra surface movement for that many fish as well. I have two powerful ones on my 90g in addition to their filter..can't tell you how much or how many, don't know what the labs would be comfortable with ...you can probably find that out by doing a search in usenet for labs + powerheads in some of the related groups...Best wishes!

 

[CRaZeeeBiTcHisH]

sorry for the extra, but i forgot to add something that may be of use for you

as far as tank capacity and fish--with cichlids, especially africans as they tend to be most aggressive, you don't use inch to gallon ration, you will have a lot of murdered fishes! Just do some research on how much territory your labs need when they become adults and you can judge from there. There is a method called controlled overstocking, but unless you really want to dive in headfirst, I would wait awhile on that. You can also help them choose smaller areas by breaking it up a little. They use 'markers' for lack of a better word. A fish that would usually claim the entire tank will choose a smaller area to defend if his sight line is interrupted..there are exceptions though i don't think the labs are that aggressive..so try putting in some plants and rocks! they love rocks! to break things up...not sure if labs dig, but most cichlids do as adults, so be sure that your rocks won't tumble and break glass if they dig the gravel out from under...hope this is helpful!

 

[fishfreek]

Re: sickly labs

There is a lot of good info on the net about the malawi cichlids.

If you get an opertunity maybe you could post some links to this information in our LINKS section under Additonal aquarium resources >> Freshwater Aquariums.

Maybe if we have alot of Chichlid references I can make a subcategory under freshwater for just chichlid links.

Thanks for all the great advice so kudos to you are comming 8O

 

[CRaZeeeBiTcHisH]

well i don't know about good, but, hey...kudos! what are the kudos ?

 

[kwest]

sick labs

Thanks to all of you for great input.

I do have a lot of rocks, drift wood and java fern in my tank as well as salt so I think I need to check into the kh and gh of the water. I started using RO water because the previous owner didn't mind algae - lots of it - and I've slowly been getting rid of it by using RO water. I cleaned the walls and equipment when I brought it home (6 months ago), but the plants continued to grow the black stuff. However, algae is manageable now so could be that I need to stop the RO. The ph is a little low - 7.8, but I don't think thats the main problem since these fish were raised in these conditions. I know I must have a bully since I found a gash on a fish so my next step is to move a few into the smaller tank, check the kh/gh, maybe use the cichlid salt or cichlid essential elements and add a powerhead.

I really like this site and wish you great success in reaching a greater audience.

Kim

 

[CRaZeeeBiTcHisH]

I do have a lot of rocks, drift wood and java fern in my tank as well as salt

when you say 'salt' , are you referring to sodium chloride, or the cichlid 'salts'?

 

[kwest]

sick labs

Crazy,

I use sodium chloride - plain Aquarium salt. But now I have noticed that several fish are glancing off rocks!! I started treating with Malachite late last night after reading that parasites are probably the cause of that symptom. I'm at a loss here since all my parameters are fine - the main problem I have is a few too many fish, but they are still small so its not like I'm way overboard. I'm sinking here - someone throw me an oar.

Kim