Tap water during rainy season cause deaths?

[Bobrummel]

I have a 29 gallon tank with a Aquaclear 70 filter, 2 bubblers, plastic decor, gravel. It is a community tank that has been set up for 4 years. Last year in April and this year in late February I had an almost 100% fish deaths in my tank. Last year 4/22 fish survived and this year 3/20 fish survived. When they get sick, they look healthy one day and then one or two at a time are either a) swimming crazy or b) faded, listless, with (sometimes) red gills. The crazy swimmers die in a day. The listless ones usually hang on a little longer.

I don't do anything different that I am aware of during the spring. I use Prime to condition the water, change my 40-50% water every 7-10 days. My fish live happily the whole rest of the year and the years prior to last spring.

Tank is cycled and had all 0's on the levels. Honestly, I have not tested the pH in a while because it has always been off of the API scale. It is very hard water, but I don't have a GH test. Maybe bad fish keeping, but I'm being honest.

Could it be possible that my local water supply could have something in the water that I don't test for that is slowly killing my fish? The last two springs we have had a lot of rain. Before, we were in a drought. My water is treated surface water.

Also, if it is my tap water, what can I use instead? Bottle water is $$$, RO/DI seems expensive with all of the additives necessary for freshwater, but I'll do it if that is what it takes. Any advice is appreciated. (Sorry for the long post.)

 

[Autumnsky]

A couple things would be first to contact the water company and ask about the water quality report which they have to do every so often by law, not sure how often. Sometimes you can see it online, otherwise ask them to send you a copy.

Also the water company will frequently begin using Chloramines in water treatment because the heat does not break them down as quickly so they last longer for treatment.

Not all water dechlorinators bind chloramines, but Prime does, but you must use a higher dosage, I believe it tells you on the bottle or for more detail to their website.
Seachem - Prime

Next is that the water company will run algae treatments during the year, which are big poisons. Also anytime they switch water sources, or do maintenance or clean or have a new line put, or a broken line, they will flush the system for consumer safety with bigger poisons.

Check with them if they have specific /certain times of year any of that stuff is done and note the dates.

Our water supply comes from 2 different sources, when the lake water is used they start on the reservoir water which means a big flush (at least 2x per year) and different hardness.

If you smell stronger chemicals than normal wait a couple days, call in to water department and check what they have been up to or dose the 7x emergency dose for Prime.

Good luck.

 

[fishguy138]

One way to avoid this all together is get one of those 5 gallon jugs that fit on top of water coolers. You can get them filled with clean purified water for less than $2 a jug at walmart. Since your tank is 29 gallon, one jug would be about a 20% water change and it won't matter what the water department is pumping through your lines. Hope that helps

 

[flchamp89]

Get as much params(info) on tap as possible. I know some who will cut there tap with r/o. May be able to go this route if you can get the science down on whats in the tap

 

[Bobrummel]

Short term solution

One way to avoid this all together is get one of those 5 gallon jugs that fit on top of water coolers. You can get them filled with clean purified water for less than $2 a jug at walmart. Since your tank is 29 gallon, one jug would be about a 20% water change and it won't matter what the water department is pumping through your lines. Hope that helps

Maybe I will try to do this in the short term. It sounds like finding out about the water is important but may take some time.

I've never bought water from Walmart. Do they sell the bottles there? Can I maybe use my vaccine to get the water out or is there a better method? Do you need to be careful with different water parameters mixing with my current ones? Will I need to add extra minerals like you do when you use RO/DI water?

I suppose that if that water doesn't have as many toxic chemicals, the fish may not mind as much the change if they can breath again

Keep the suggestions coming?

 

[coralbandit]

Columnaris is seasonal..
Your survivors are infected carriers that will allow the issue to pop up as it pleases....

 

[Bobrummel]

Colunmaris

If this is true and they have had columnaris and survived, does that mean I will never be able to get rid of it out of my tank? If I treat for columnaris, will the carriers be rid of the disease or will they be carriers forever?

This is the first anyone has even mentioned columnaris to me and I've showed my LFS pics and videos of my issue

 

[nirbhao]

First of all, you don't have to buy a water cooler from Walmart. Many stores sell them. I will skip how I feel about Walmart aside from to say you do not need to shop there.

I have chloramines and double dose Prime (now Safe) with each water change. I can see the white in the water. I have crashed my cycle under treating.

Columnaris is really awful, but you can get through it. How many fish do you have now? It may be best to euthanize the fish you have, sterilize all of your equipment and decor, and start over. I kept my fish alive through a columnaris treatment, and that made the process 1,000% more difficult. If you have expensive or hard to get fish, you may want to try to save them, but otherwise grab the bleach.

Bleh. No fun

 

[Bobrummel]

Is it really columnaris?

What part of my story made coralbandit think it was columnaris?

I don't really have any expensive fish, but I'd hate to kill off seemingly healthy fish on the off chance that they might have something really contagious. I've had my free, one eyed Bolivian Ram for 4 years.

 

[nirbhao]

Multiple sudden deaths when the weather gets warmer points to columnaris, although it's not the only possibility. Definitely get a water quality report.

 

[Bobrummel]

No snark intended...

Ok, no snark intended, and this may show my total ignorance about fish tanks, but how does seasonality effect a fish tank with a heater? Are you saying the bacteria is more prevalent in the water when days get longer or outside temps get warmer?

It's not like my water temperature in the tank fluctuates like a lake. My temperature outside doesn't even fluctuate like normal seasons. I suppose the average temps are rising but that doesn't mean that we could not have a colder day tomorrow than we had in December.

I have not heard about a form of columnaris that could last for weeks but have no external symptoms (listless or crazy swimming excluded) besides a percentage of the fish having red gills (not all). I thought there was either the kind that kill within 24 hours and decimate the entire tank or the ones that linger but have the classic symptoms.
Thanks for the education!

 

[nirbhao]

Columnaris, like many other microbes, comes through your tap. It's always there,really, but it can't take hold unless a fish is compromised somehow. When it does take hold, it gets really intense really fast. I don't know about the laying dormant part.

 

[coralbandit]

The description of your fishes situation led me columnaris...
Not to be rude to YOU OP but this is a dead horse on this forum..They just watch your fish die and say test your water..Little knowledge at all.
Matt will want you to use the medicated food he uses that never worked ?
Besdies "N" most everyone else on this site refuses to see it through all their dead fish.I will post for you the link I post for all.
It has 4 different strains of columnaris described one of which shows no symptoms at all besides rapid death.SO IF LIKE SO MANY OTHERS HERE YOU SAY 'MY FISH DON'T HAVE ANY OF THOSE SYMPTOMS' ENJOY YOUR DIEING FISH...
The forum has taught me not to sweat other peoples stuff...I can't convince everyone and need to convince none ...Check my profile or videos of my fish room...I keep ,breed and raise healthy fish...
I dealt with columnaris years ago and although the phrase 'I wouldn't wish it on my enimies" doesn't hold water for me ,it is a losing battle the fish industry refuses to acknowledge...We keep throwing antibiotics at it until they no longer work and then we try a stronger one [or two]..The current Antibiotic treatment of columnaris is Kannamycin[seachem kannaplex] and nitrofurazone[API furan 2] since tetracyclene has been worn out by poor and improper use.
Here is your link
http://www.myaquariumclub.com/column...d...-1689.html

Ask "N" about her fish and what went down,doesn't sound like you have any other useful help yet...
I'll add since I sound like a know it all I am not,but a ton of research shows that the very same treatment that recommended for columnaris will work for almost every other disease that presents with the same symptoms.So with that the correct diagnosis doesn't much matter if the treatment works...True proper diagnosis often require a necropsy[animal autopsy] which is way beyond me...
The other big ticket with columanris is ..It loves clean water so good keepers are not safe from it...
__________________

 

[Delapool]

Ok, no snark intended, and this may show my total ignorance about fish tanks, but how does seasonality effect a fish tank with a heater? Are you saying the bacteria is more prevalent in the water when days get longer or outside temps get warmer?

It's not like my water temperature in the tank fluctuates like a lake. My temperature outside doesn't even fluctuate like normal seasons. I suppose the average temps are rising but that doesn't mean that we could not have a colder day tomorrow than we had in December.

I have not heard about a form of columnaris that could last for weeks but have no external symptoms (listless or crazy swimming excluded) besides a percentage of the fish having red gills (not all). I thought there was either the kind that kill within 24 hours and decimate the entire tank or the ones that linger but have the classic symptoms.
Thanks for the education!

The bacteria are always there but can attack weakened fish under certain conditions. A small temperature spike coming into summer may be enough to do it. Once it gets going then you are into the signs you describe unfortunately. Or infected fish (stressed from transport) are put into a tank. Here, I try to buy fish in the cooler months - I find that less risky.

However, the bacterial infection (of any kind) may be secondary to bad water (ie this is the trigger such as water company change water treatment at change into summer ). So important to identify what changed at that time IMO. Standard is do a water check. If simply improving water quality and not unnecessarily using antibiotics can do, tick for a win.

Furan 2 I quite like. Other meds work - one win with tripple sulpha. Tetracycline (our one of two main meds available here I find just about useless). At a recent discus breeder lecture it was suggested to try using two antibiotics that will complement each other (try suggesting that to your doctor!). Oxytetracycline was one we got out of him (this may reflect meds availability - not sure there).

 

[nirbhao]

Kanamycin and nitrofuran actually compliment each other. Their mechanisms are different and make the other more effective.

I have wild -caught fish, and it felt wrong to euthanize without knowing they were infected. Some disagree. I also kept guppies alive because I am a softie and my daughter loves them.

What seemed to be effective for me:
1. Remove everything from the tank.
2. Bleach everything that can be bleached - equipment, decor, the tank itself. Everything in the filter. All of it.
3. Refill the tank, put the fish back in, and run the Kanaplex / Furan-2 treatment following the directions. You should only be using mechanical filtration at this point, like batting or floss.
4. Treat plants with a hydrogen peroxide bath. Put them in a quarantine tank. I left mine in the bucket and lost quite a few.
5. After the Kanaplex / Furan 2 treatment, dose with potassium permanganate. That's it's own thing.

Immediately euthanize any fish acting strangely.

This process takes about two weeks. You will have killed everything in your tank except fish. Don't use anything that hasn't been completely sterilized. As you rebuild, you can choose a fish-in cycle. I decided that my fish had been through enough and invested in an Angels Plus active sponge filter. I only lost one fish during this process, as opposed to the several within the couple days before I started.

It's taken time to rebuild the stock, but we're where I want to be now. The positive is that I got to redesign everything. The downside is that I had to toss substrate that was not cheap. It's also expensive. Far cheaper to bleach the ef out of everything and start fresh.

Watching perfectly healthy fish die so suddenly was very difficult. Their deaths appeared to involve a great deal of suffering, and the actual function of columnaris certainly sounds terrible.

I hated it.

 

[Bobrummel]

i appreciate all of the information. I really do. I just don't know what to do. Maybe I just don't have the time and resources for this fish hobby right now. Originally, I got back into fish because my kid liked to look at them. It seemd so easy way back when I had a smaller tank in college. I didn't do much and all the fish lived.

Now, I've had multiple issues from burst tanks to possible chronic, recurring illnesses due to carrier fish, seasonal water parameters, and other unknown causes.

I have a few fish left now that seem ok, or mostly ok to a beginner fish person. This is what I see for my options currently:
A. I could put them in a bucket, strip everything from the tank and bleach, add new water, throw fish back in, treat them with double antibiotics and hope that kills any remaining columaris left in the tank and hope they live through the cycling. Add new decor once antibiotics are finished. I read that corys will get fungus without substrate. True or not?
B. I could euthanize the fish that are swimming funny and hope the rest live with no antibiotics. Then, don't put anything else in the tank until these fish die naturally. This could lead to sad fish due to the small schooling numbers, but they wouldn't be carriers/transmitters for any new fish.
C. Kill everything, whether they look sick or not, buy stock in bleach and restart my tank in a couple of months when any non-bleached bacteria has outlived its 32 day life cycle.
D. Leave all fish as long as they are not dead, even if they are sick, leave all decor, add salt, use double antibiotics and see if anyone survives. Will kill good bacteria, but will not have to dismantle tank.

Do these options look about right? Coralbandit, from your article it looked like you did option D, correct? Or did you strip your tanks or use hospital? If that is the case, would you suggest stripping the tank or just leaving everything in? All my decor is fake. I only have one tank, so hospital is it an option for me right now.
I think "N" is recommending either the starting over method(C) if I don't have anything special, or (A) if I have something I'd really like to keep if I'm reading their comments correctly.
Thanks again for everyone's input. I'm trying to learn as I go. Sometimes that is to the detriment of the fish surrounding me, but at least I'm trying to learn from my experiences.
Thanks again.

 

[nirbhao]

You're right that I advocate A or C. You could do a combination of B and D, treating with antibiotics and removing any fish acting "off."

Don't leave sick fish with healthy fish.

Sorry you're going through this. Hopefully you find value in pushing through.

 

[Bobrummel]

Dosage and duration?

So, I've at least decided to treat my tank if my Bolivian Ram is still healthy in the morning and have the Furan 2 and Kanaplex. I'm confused on the treatment schedule. I have a 29 gallon tank, so I assumed I should dose at 30 gallons since I read not to decrease for tetras. Is that correct?

I've read in one spot to do Furan 2 daily for 5 days with 25% water changes every other day (Day 1 before treatment, day 3, day 5). But then I read maybe 2 rounds? And still another place was every other day for 10 days?

I read on the Kanaplex that is dosed every other day for 3 treatments. Is this sufficient for Columnaris or do I need to do for longer?

Coralbandit(and others with way more experience), please help!

 

[coralbandit]

Follow directions on meds for amount to use and how often.
Plan on doing 10 days worth of meds .
Like N said plan A/C are best.
The cories wil be fine without substrate I have 11 orange laser cories that have never seen substrate since being in house....
If a fish looks off it needs to be removed.
Good luck and here is next link with info...
Fish Columnaris | Fungus & Saprolegnia | Treatment & Prevention