Treating Ick with Chemicals Success in 3 Days

[bs6749]

For all you doubters of using chemicals to treat Ick, I've got bad news for you. It works, and it works well.

Until recently, I had no firsthand experience with using "Quick Cure" to treat Ick, but I often recommended others to use it. I simply trusted the words of professional discus keepers and experts who also use it. Well, on Friday I noticed that in my 29g Endler tank, one of the females was extremely skinny and was covered in Ick! When I went to feed the tank in the morning as per my usual routine I noticed that one female had given birth as there were many fry amongst the java moss and guppy grass. Then I noticed the skinny female with Ick and knew that she was the one who had given birth as she was hovering on the bottom the night before and was bloated with babies inside of her.

So, what was the cause for the sudden outbreak of Ick? First, Ick is always present in any aquarium. Secondly, a fish will normally be resistant to the parasite because of it's slime coat and normal flora (the beneficial bacteria present which prevent diseases from starting) but if the fish is stressed for any reason ranging from not being acclimated properly, to aggressive tankmates, or even the stress of giving brith, Ick may be able to infect the fish as it is an opportunistic parasite. It will attack when the conditions are right for it to do so and you will not see any signs of it until it attacks.

For treatment, I used my own advice that I normally give to others. After all, what good is giving advice if it's something that you would not practice yourself? I treated the tank with 1 drop per gallon of "Quick Cure" that contains active ingredients of formalin and malachite green. The temperature in the tank was at 84 degrees and I left it alone. On Saturday I repeated to dosage and noticed a small decline in the amount of Ick present on the fish. Yesterday, I repeated a third dosage and noticed that there was about half of the amount of Ick on the fish as there was on Friday, the first day I noticed the Ick was present. I never did a water change between treatments and none was recommended. Today, I feed the tank and get ready to treat one more time. I see the female that was infected with Ick and there wasn't a single spot of Ick present. Ick problem solved in THREE DAYS without rasing the temperature to possibly stressful levels. What's more? All of my fry that were alive from the first day of treatment including the ones that were 12 hours (at most) old are still alive and kicking and eating flakes, frozen brine shrimp, and frozen bloodworms.

Hopefully now some of you will take other's advice when it is suggested to you that you treat with "Quick Cure" or something similar containing formalin or malachite green or a combination of the two. If you want the fish to live and if it's in bad shape, three days is all it will need. If it's safe enough to use on extremely young and fragile fry and if discus experts around the world use it on there extremely expensive fish, why is it not good enough for YOU?

 

[neilanh]

I can't discount your experience with meds, but would like to point out a few things. Just as my disclaimer, I have never used meds to treat for ich, and have my own personal reasons for doing so.

That being said, I'm glad for your success, but have a few comments.

1) you can't be sure that the ich is gone. Ich has 3 stages to it's lifecycle, and only 1 of those stages shows symptoms that are visible.

2) your tank is already at 84 degrees you said, which is only 1 degree shy of where the target is for the heat treatment, so I believe this had something to do with it, and would hardly consider that to be stressful levels.

I worry that you are just now entering the phase of the ick's lifecycle where it goes free swimming, which is IIRC the next phase after it's no longer visible. If this is the case, I'd suggest you keep an eye on your tank and make sure you've gotten rid of it, as ick ISN'T always present in an aquarium as you said, and your other fish may now be susceptible.

Based on my research (again, no personal experience) I've read that meds DO work on ich IF you catch them at a lifecycle phase where they are susceptible to the meds.

 

[bs6749]

1) The Ick on the fish is gone and that is the important thing for the survival of the fish. It doesn't matter if the Ick is in the tank, as like I pointed out in my previous post it is ALWAYS present in an established tank and is waiting for the right opportunity to present itself. The whole purpose of raising the temperature of the tank is so Ick completes it's life cycle much more quickly and goes into the form that can be killed. It takes roughly 4 hours to complete it's life cycle at 86 degrees, which is the temperature you want the tank to be at if you choose to do the heat treatment.

2) Yes, my tank was at 84 degrees, 2 degrees below the temperature at which Ick starts to be incapable of reproducing (supposedly). The heat treatment should be done for a minimum of 10 days and then the temperature should be lowered gradually within the next few days after treatment so the "heat method" takes roughly 2 weeks and causes unnecessary stress. I don't get what you say about the temperature (84 degrees) hardly being at a stressful level. I always keep my Endler tank at that level and didn't adjust the temp at all, I simply dosed Quick Cure. For Endlers the heat method may not be stressful but the female looked incredibly weak and I didn't think she'd make it. For discus, they'd love the temperature increase. I've got my 100g set to 92 right now and I am seeing more activity than I have when they were kept at 84 degrees. For something like platies, swords, and other 72-76 degree fish the heat treatment may not be the way to go as they wouldn't adjust as easily to 86 degree water.

There's no need to worry about it going free-swimming. It is gone off of the fish and the meds have effectively killed the parasite in its adult stage, therefore there aren't many Ick parasites in the swimming stage. Not enough to infect a fish at least.

Ick IS always present in the aquarium once you add fish. If you look on the normal flora of the fish I bet you'd find some Ick present just waitig to take hold. If it wasn't always present (spore form), how did it get there? Did it spontaneously generate? It's widely accepted and known that it is ALWAYS present in the tank.

 

[rob28]

neilnh, id like to add to your comment.

i beleive there is only one stage you can, actually, kill ich in.
That stage would be the 3rd.

If Im not mistaken.

 

[Jnam]

I to have had success with medication VS heat treatment. I do prefer the heat treatment to medication. Some medications are a serious blanket treatment though, malachite green/formalin can do serious gill damage to the Tetra family of fish and some invertibrates can not handle it at all. But other hardier stock will do just fine. Some of the treatments like quick cure tell you to use it at half strength if Tetras are present(my question to that is why not just use it half strength anyways? if its effective at half strength). Malachite green will stain your silicone seals and any silicone airtubing. But it is all extremely effective.

I think that every treatment will have its ill effects, thats the problem us people we call them side effects like "this medication will cure your migrains however it has been shown to cause explosive diareaha" Well YAY no more migrain but dang I better by some good magazines cause i am gonna be in the can for a while. Most of us would rather just not have to treat any illness in our aquarium and, hopefully all together avoid any side effects.

You are right quite a few encysted tomonts(stage II) will exist as well as theronts(vulnerable Stage III) in your tank flora at any given time.


That said if it works for you then do it!

Side note: All my livebearers and even my less hardy neon tetras dont respond negatively to the heat treatment. As long as I provide adequate airation and raise the temp slowly and evenly.

 

[Innovator]

I am not sure what the argument is to be quite honest? The reason medications are usually not recommended against ich is because there are more humane ways of eliminating the parasite without harsh side effects; however, medications have been used for decades against it and other maladies. There are very few effective medications, hobby or professional, that don't increase the likelihood of added stress and possibility of respiration and internal organ failure if used improperly and even proper use does not guarantee that the fish is strong enough to withstand the duration. Lets face it, most medications will literally burn the parasites from the body so as you medicate you also lower the fishes immune systems upon contact; hence, the fish gets worse before it gets better. Is ich present in every aquarium? Well, no. Ich is a parasite and without a host it dies. There is technically no hibernation period; although, I have used such words acknowledging a prolonged tomont stage. Formalin/Malachite green is a very harsh medication and needs to be in combination as to eradicate ich. The routine you did is standard protocol for the most part, but keep in mind that both medications are considered suspect of being carcinogenic and excessive exposure to animals can cause respiratory distress and internal organ failure. Glad it is working out for you and just food for thought

 

[SpeedEuphoria]

I dont think there are any "doubters", its just that people prefer to use heat and recommend that method.

I honestly dont see the point of not using it, when your tank temps were already 83deg F

 

[bs6749]

I am not sure what the argument is to be quite honest? The reason medications are usually not recommended against ich is because there are more humane ways of eliminating the parasite without harsh side effects; however, medications have been used for decades against it and other maladies.

Humane ways such as stressing the fish by raising the temperature that much causing it to breathe more laboriously for 2 weeks? What are the harsh side effects of using formalin and malachite green?

There are very few effective medications, hobby or professional, that don't increase the likelihood of added stress and possibility of respiration and internal organ failure if used improperly and even proper use does not guarantee that the fish is strong enough to withstand the duration.

Do you know this for a fact or are you simply assuming? The same thing could be said about using the heat treatment improperly causing the fish stress. Example, oops, I just set my heater to 98 degrees instead of the 88 I was shooting for. Or how about a heater malfunction where you set it to 88 and then it never turns off but you don't ever notice until 5 days later when the tank is at 94. You are suggesting with your very words that medications ARE EFFECTIVE if used proplerly but you focus on the negative part of them (improper dosing) to attack them. It's not the fault of the meds if they are dosed incorrectly, it's the fault of the hobbyist.

Lets face it, most medications will literally burn the parasites from the body so as you medicate you also lower the fishes immune systems upon contact; hence, the fish gets worse before it gets better.

I don't think you know what you are talking about! There are different classes of medications each with different properties. There are gram positive bacteria meds as well as gram negative bacteria meds. Neither one is effective against what the other is intended for and neither of them "burn" parasites off of the fish as you described. It all has to do with the presence or lack of a peptidoglycan membrane surrounding the bacterial cells.

There are also fungicides and even external and internal parasite meds. The parasite meds are a small portion of the total meds out there and to categorize them all as "burning the parasites off of fish" is inaccurate at the best ,if not totally incorrect.

Is ich present in every aquarium? Well, no. Ich is a parasite and without a host it dies. There is technically no hibernation period; although, I have used such words acknowledging a prolonged tomont stage.

Spores = the "dormant" stage in parasites and bacteria. Once conditions are optimal for the spores to take hold and grow they will. Bacteria can survive for hundreds of years in the spore form to emerge when conditions are right. They are even resistante to being boiled and must be autoclaved at an increased temperature and pressure to be destroyed. Spores are formed when survival chances of the microorganism is low. Bacteria will produce spores when food is scarce for example so that they may survive.

Formalin/Malachite green is a very harsh medication and needs to be in combination as to eradicate ich. The routine you did is standard protocol for the most part, but keep in mind that both medications are considered suspect of being carcinogenic and excessive exposure to animals can cause respiratory distress and internal organ failure.

Actually EITHER formalin or malachite green will suffice by itself in order to treat Ick. The Quick Cure contained both and that's what I happened to use. If I had formalin on hand I would have used just that because of the staining properties of it. With the short lifespan of these fish I'd say it'd be better to treat them and not worry about the chance of cancer forming, or did you mean for me? If that's the case, take a look on the back of a wart remover that you can get at a pharmacy. Look on the back of it and you will see that one of the ingredients is formalin. Guess it's safe enough to use on people but not on fish!

 

[bs6749]

I dont think there are any "doubters", its just that people prefer to use heat and recommend that method.

I honestly dont see the point of not using it, when your tank temps were already 83deg F

When it was widespread on a fish that quickly there's no way I was going to chance the infection of my other 30+ class N stock of Endlers. Looks like I made the right decision as all of them are still alive and the female is free of and noticeable Ick. It'd take much longer for the heat treatment to be effective and by that time many of the other fish could have been infected and I'd have to treat the tank even longer.

 

[rob28]

raising the temps to 86 degrees does not stress fish, as long as it is graduall, that came from waters in the amazon. how hot do you think the water is there?

 

[Innovator]

Humane ways such as stressing the fish by raising the temperature that much causing it to breathe more laboriously for 2 weeks? What are the harsh side effects of using formalin and malachite green?

An increase in temperature demands an increase in oxygenation. The increase in heart rate and metabolism is much more humane and less stressful than starving the animal of oxygenation through a poison, which is what various medications do.

Do you know this for a fact or are you simply assuming? The same thing could be said about using the heat treatment improperly causing the fish stress. Example, oops, I just set my heater to 98 degrees instead of the 88 I was shooting for. Or how about a heater malfunction where you set it to 88 and then it never turns off but you don't ever notice until 5 days later when the tank is at 94. You are suggesting with your very words that medications ARE EFFECTIVE if used proplerly but you focus on the negative part of them (improper dosing) to attack them. It's not the fault of the meds if they are dosed incorrectly, it's the fault of the hobbyist.

Why yes I do know this for a fact; It is my job to know such things. Death is death in one form or another. Yes, I am a proponent of medication usage and all medications should be used properly, I never denied that; however, mechanical malfunction is a far cry from medical responsibility. In using harsh medications, for lack of a better term, your animal is ingesting a concentration of poison so one better know the possible outcomes and side effects.

I don't think you know what you are talking about! There are different classes of medications each with different properties. There are gram positive bacteria meds as well as gram negative bacteria meds. Neither one is effective against what the other is intended for and neither of them "burn" parasites off of the fish as you described. It all has to do with the presence or lack of a peptidoglycan membrane surrounding the bacterial cells.

There are also fungicides and even external and internal parasite meds. The parasite meds are a small portion of the total meds out there and to categorize them all as "burning the parasites off of fish" is inaccurate at the best ,if not totally incorrect.

Do a search on this board for fish medicine books. I've referenced them several times and it will open your eyes. Your response shows little relevance as to effects of parasites compared to effects on fish nor were we speaking of fungicides or bacterial strains, which can also be damaging depending on the medication and fish.

Spores = the "dormant" stage in parasites and bacteria. Once conditions are optimal for the spores to take hold and grow they will. Bacteria can survive for hundreds of years in the spore form to emerge when conditions are right. They are even resistante to being boiled and must be autoclaved at an increased temperature and pressure to be destroyed. Spores are formed when survival chances of the microorganism is low. Bacteria will produce spores when food is scarce for example so that they may survive.

May I ask where you received this information? I have a feeling I know, but just to be sure...Either way, do take a read once you've acquired one or all of the previously mentioned books somewhere within your reach i.e. Hint: Search button.

Actually EITHER formalin or malachite green will suffice by itself in order to treat Ick. The Quick Cure contained both and that's what I happened to use. If I had formalin on hand I would have used just that because of the staining properties of it. With the short lifespan of these fish I'd say it'd be better to treat them and not worry about the chance of cancer forming, or did you mean for me? If that's the case, take a look on the back of a wart remover that you can get at a pharmacy. Look on the back of it and you will see that one of the ingredients is formalin. Guess it's safe enough to use on people but not on fish!

You do not seem to understand and there is very little relevance once again other than the word Formalin or Malachite Green being used. You are not ingesting, breathing, fully taking into the body Formalin and/or Malachite Green, but your fish are when they are being put into a bath. Such parasiticides can have deleterious effects whether used properly or not and depending upon the species and even water conditions. I do agree that medications are seemingly a must at times, but you are stating mythinformation for the most part and comparing apples and oranges. Do a search on aquarium mythinformation and ich will be within the top 10 stating your arguments.

 

[SpeedEuphoria]

Humane ways such as stressing the fish by raising the temperature that much causing it to breathe more laboriously for 2 weeks? What are the harsh side effects of using formalin and malachite green?

Dont be so defensive. Your 1st post came off this way and this post is the same.

Studies show that fish respiration can go up by up to 60% when subjected to malachite green + Formalin. Formalin consumes oxygen and Malachite Green effects the gills so your argument about breathing more laboriously applies to both methods.

I have done a little research, I understand that this is a good method for Ich treatment(Malachite Green/Formalin).

That being said, people have choices and things should be dealt with on a case by case basis. Like you said that it was bad so that makes since to get something going quickly.

With that in mind, heat treatment, raising the temp 3def F is not a big deal at all period. 10 deg F+ is more stressful IMO.

The Malachite green attacks things at the Cellular level( DNA/nucleus), it is stored in the fishes tissue for a period, doesnt seem to have long term effects but did not find a long term study on it. High levels are toxic to fish.

Either way is fine, just some people knowing that these chemicals do what they do find it more humane to use heat.

Now if you were infected with Ich, what would you do? Its kinda like Chemotherapy, would you do it if there was another option?

Anyway I found this to be a good article for treatment with Malachite Green:
http://www.goldfishvet.com/treatments/malachite.htm
http://www.vri.cz/docs/vetmed/52-12-527.pdf
http://www.pondcrisis.com/a_formalin.html

 

[Innovator]

neilnh, id like to add to your comment.

i beleive there is only one stage you can, actually, kill ich in.
That stage would be the 3rd.

If Im not mistaken.

The third stage is the Theront stage, which is most vulnerable where the offspring "hatch."

 

[rob28]

The third stage is the Theront stage, which is most vulnerable where the offspring "hatch."

woot woot
one for me
and one for you

 

[bs6749]

raising the temps to 86 degrees does not stress fish, as long as it is graduall, that came from waters in the amazon. how hot do you think the water is there?

Not all fish come from the Amazon River you know and that was my point if you would have read previous posts. Sure, for a discus it's not that much of an increase but for something like a swordtail, or even some plecos found in the Amazon River they don't like those temps.

 

[Zagz]

I don't doubt the use of medications. I prefer the heat method. I increase oxygen in the tank and have never had fish gasping as a result of my heat treatment for treating ich. Everyone has their preferences and using heat is one that many on this board prefer. Prefer being the operative word. I'm not sure that anyone doubts the use of medications to work, they just prefer to not use medications.

 

[rob28]

cool...
not tryin to argue

 

[MichaelsLilGray]

I am not sure what the argument is to be quite honest? The reason medications are usually not recommended against ich is because there are more humane ways of eliminating the parasite without harsh side effects; however, medications have been used for decades against it and other maladies. There are very few effective medications, hobby or professional, that don't increase the likelihood of added stress and possibility of respiration and internal organ failure if used improperly and even proper use does not guarantee that the fish is strong enough to withstand the duration. Lets face it, most medications will literally burn the parasites from the body so as you medicate you also lower the fishes immune systems upon contact; hence, the fish gets worse before it gets better. Is ich present in every aquarium? Well, no. Ich is a parasite and without a host it dies. There is technically no hibernation period; although, I have used such words acknowledging a prolonged tomont stage. Formalin/Malachite green is a very harsh medication and needs to be in combination as to eradicate ich. The routine you did is standard protocol for the most part, but keep in mind that both medications are considered suspect of being carcinogenic and excessive exposure to animals can cause respiratory distress and internal organ failure. Glad it is working out for you and just food for thought

Would you prefer taking asprine or sit in the sun for 2 weeks for a headache to go away?

 

[Innovator]

That is why people use a combination of a higher temp., to speed up the life cycle process and salt above 1ppt, which also provides stress relief osmotically.

 

[bs6749]

An increase in temperature demands an increase in oxygenation. The increase in heart rate and metabolism is much more humane and less stressful than starving the animal of oxygenation through a poison, which is what various medications do.

So saving 10 dimes is worth more than saving a dollar bill by the same logic. That's not true at all. An increase is an increase no matter what the cause. The heat method makes the fish "starve" for oxygen much longer. I think you should think about what you said and consider that.

May I ask where you received this information? I have a feeling I know, but just to be sure...Either way, do take a read once you've acquired one or all of the previously mentioned books somewhere within your reach i.e. Hint: Search button.

Both of my medical microbiology instructor (both have Ph.D's) went over this in some detail for my medical micro class. They attend seminars annually on pathogens etc. I'll take both of their words on the matter.