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Old 03-12-2011, 03:37 AM   #1
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Background: My 4 year old Black Moors have been getting a progressively white chalk like coating. Lately their eyes have become clouded too. Tried many cures. Salt & raised heat, Melafix & Pelafix (combined), Jungle parasite food, even 7 days of Quick Cure when my tank got ick. Nothing has helped relieve this issue. Overall they don't seem to be suffering (active, voracious appetite, etc.) But it's clear that it's getting worse and hate to think that it may become fatal.

When I was investigating a LFS in the East Bay, the owner and I got to talking, he understood the ailments I was describing and very graciously spent a fair amount of time going over a course of treatment he's used before. He also refered to their ailment as a "bacterial fungus" in a loose sense of the term.

Today I began the first day (of 5-7 days) of this (hopefully) cure all.

The treatment is as follows:

Day 1: Salt, full dose + 10%. Furan-2, standard dose. pH at 7 to 7.1

Day 2: Do nothing.

Day 3: 1/3 water change. Salt, standard dose. Furan-2, standard dose.

Day 4: Do nothing.

Day 5: Repeat day 3.

Day 6: 1/3 water change. Salt, 20% of standard dose.

Day 7: Repeat day 3 if needed.

My biggest issue with the treatment is that it's been impossible to get my pH down to 7. I've tried everything possible and the best I can get it down to is 7.4. I'm not sure if this will be a detriment to the med course, but there's nothing I can do at this point.

I'm testing the tanks water constantly and keeping a close eye on them. In the event they become overly distressed, I'd most likely suspend treatment.

I'll be keeping a daily log and with a bit of luck and a couple of prayers, I hope this will cure them.

Any comments, suggestions, or input are very welcome.

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Old 03-13-2011, 01:04 AM   #2
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Higher heat makes fungus worse, for future reference.

I would get some anti-bacterial food for them. It sounds like they are having a slime coat issue, and there can be alot of different causes for that.

I would look up what other people say about their fish having an excessive slime coat on the moors.

What are your water parameters? (Ammonia, nitrite and nitrate).

Remember that salt does not evaporate, so when you are done using it, you will have to manually remove it.
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Old 03-13-2011, 01:51 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dkpate
Higher heat makes fungus worse, for future reference.

I would get some anti-bacterial food for them. It sounds like they are having a slime coat issue, and there can be alot of different causes for that.

I would look up what other people say about their fish having an excessive slime coat on the moors.

What are your water parameters? (Ammonia, nitrite and nitrate).

Remember that salt does not evaporate, so when you are done using it, you will have to manually remove it.
If the temp were in the 80's I'd agree but at 76, it's middle of the road I've been told. It's the cloudy eyes too and I've researched and tried everything under the sun, including the anti-bacterial food which I've found to be useless.

This the 5th treatment I've given them in tha past 7 months and pretty much a last resort. Water is normal: ammo 0, no2 0, no3 30 in a planted tank (so nitrAtes aren't a worry). 15% PWC 2X a week.

I'm doing this in a QT, so when I'm done salt, meds, etc are a non-issue.

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Old 03-13-2011, 03:12 AM   #4
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First 24 hrs (or so) are over and so far, so good. They're looking the same which I expected, but not any worse.

Ammo climbed a bit to .50 ppm, but prime got it under control and back down to .10 - .0 ppm without having to do a pwc. pH is slowly dropping which is a good, from 7.8 yesterday to 7.4 today.

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Old 03-13-2011, 02:35 PM   #5
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I have been dealing with a similaer sounding problem. You can read the details in my two threads
Ich and velvet
and
Please help sick angels
both in this forum.
FINALLY they are getting better, and as your lfs guy told you in your case, mine turns out to have been a bacterial "fungus". I began first with API tripal sulfa. I thought I noticed an improvement after the first 12 hours, but my lfs was out of the tripal sulfa for the required second dose! I had to go with an alternative yesterday evening to finish it out. Maracyn and Maracyn two. They were WAY more expensive as I have to treat a 95g for 5 days as opposed to the tripal sulfa for two, but they said it also would treat gram positive and gram negative bacteria so supposedly it will have the same benefit.
Anyway long story short... the less expensive API tripa sulfa was doing the trick I think, so give it a shot for your tank. I hope it helps and you don't have to put your fish through or go through what I did!
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Old 03-13-2011, 02:50 PM   #6
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Thanks for the info, I'll read up on your threads and the meds you've listed. I'm hoping this will fix it because I'm sure all these "cures" aren't good for them in the long term.

Just an fyi, using a QT helps cut down on the amounts of meds you need to use.

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Old 03-13-2011, 03:38 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Limpet View Post
Thanks for the info, I'll read up on your threads and the meds you've listed. I'm hoping this will fix it because I'm sure all these "cures" aren't good for them in the long term.

Just an fyi, using a QT helps cut down on the amounts of meds you need to use.

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Since you mentioned it I do have a question about that. Say you have something highly contagious like this stuff, and most of your fish have it. Sould you crowd that majority 95g stock into a 30g qt to treat them?
In my current case I couldn't because I ordered baby angels about two days before the outbreak, and I have to keep my qt contaminate free for a grow out for now.
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Old 03-13-2011, 03:56 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Engel

Since you mentioned it I do have a question about that. Say you have something highly contagious like this stuff, and most of your fish have it. Sould you crowd that majority 95g stock into a 30g qt to treat them?
In my current case I couldn't because I ordered baby angels about two days before the outbreak, and I have to keep my qt contaminate free for a grow out for now.
That's my concern too because I'm not sure if it is contagious since my other fish aren't showing signs of this ailment yet (fingers crossed). But it took some time for my Moors to contract it.

If it is contagious, will I have to completely tear my tank apart? Do live plants carry it (equipment too)? If so this could get ugly (and spendy).

One thing the guy that helped said is that high pH allows this "bacterial fungus" to thrive. So I'm on a quest to get it down to a stable 7.0 and keep it there.

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Old 03-14-2011, 03:58 AM   #9
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Start of 3rd is going good. The big Moors eyes are clearing up. The left eye was cloudy and had what looked like molasses drips has completely cleared up. Right eye and the females eyes are still cloudy. White chalky film doesn't look any better, but no worse. My biggest concern is ammo is holding at .25 ppm even though I threw a second filter on the tank. Double dosing with Prime to try and keep it in check.

Both continue to be active and eating like horses and that's always a good sign.

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Old 03-15-2011, 03:33 AM   #10
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In to day 4 and things are moving along swimmingly . Both eyes on the big guy are clearing up. And the little ones good eye seems to be clearing up too (other eye has a cataract). The white chalky stuff on their bodies seems to be turning kind of a tan color. I hope this is a good sign. Ammo continues to be the biggest issue, but keeping it in check. Got an API WS pillow in hopes of dealing with the high pH.

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Old 03-16-2011, 01:56 PM   #11
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Day 5 (a day late)

PWC, meds, salt and both are looking about the same (eyes cleared up, body still tan colored).

Ammo under control and pH still up around 7.4 - 7.5.

They're moving, eating and bored to death that they're in a bare QT :\.

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Old 03-17-2011, 05:41 AM   #12
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Day 6 and no changes in their looks (eyes cleared up, tan coating on body).

Ammo is good at near zero and pH is still mid 7's. They're eating and active.

I feel like I'll need to add another 2 days of meds.

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Old 03-18-2011, 04:33 AM   #13
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Day 7 and decided to add another 2 days of cycling. The meds seems to have had some benifits, just not sure if it's going to cure everything. Tomorrow's another day :\.

Salt, meds, 1/3 PWC and both are wanting to go home and chase the danios I'm sure .

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Old 03-19-2011, 11:54 PM   #14
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Day 8 (missed it) was a wait and see day. running another course because I don't think their completely thru the fungus.

Day 9 1/3 PWC, meds and salt. Tomorrows a wait day, then start the Acclamation process over a 24 hr period. I'll post that procedure on a new thread.
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Old 03-21-2011, 01:25 PM   #15
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Day 10 was last wait and see day.

Day 11 Acclimate Moors back to their Home. Jsoong provided a step by step process (Thanks you sir!) which I'm about to put into action.

Here's the acclimation/drip program:

How much salt you have in the hospital? Ideally, you want to change the level less than 0.1% (or 0.05%) per day. So if you are coming form high salt level, it would be better to bring the salt down a bit with a few daily pwc's. It won't hurt the fish to stay in QT a few extra day.

The safest way to acclimatize new fish is a drip setup. Basically, you want to mix your tank water to the new fish water slowly (like Ryan said), but instead of doing it manually, you set up a drip. <Less work, and much less temptation to rush things.>

You would take the fish from QT & put it in a smallish container (filled with the original water). <1/2 gal or so is good.> You put that in a big bucket (or the sink) so you don't make a mess when the water in the container overflows. Next, you set up a siphon with an airline (or other small) tubing. You use that to drip water from the tank into the container. You let the container overflow, so you are gradually diluting the "original" water with your tank water. After you have siphoned in 2 or 3x the volume of the container, the water in there is like that of your tank & you are ready to move the fish to your display.

You want the drip to run slow, aiming to do the drip over 1 hr or so. I control the drip rate by using binder clips on the tubing. Some just tie a loose knot at the end & tighten or loosen the knot to control the flow.
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