Uneducated - Need help

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Texasdy

Aquarium Advice Newbie
Joined
Jul 30, 2018
Messages
7
Ok. So. I'm a petsmart fish parent. My knowledge and habits come from shallow research and info from NON professionals. I've learned more in the last week about parenting fish than I have my entire adult life... please be kind!

My family has had this Oranda for 2 years. "His" name is Michaelangelo (because "he" is orange) but after my research this week, I'm pretty sure he's a she. Not the point...

For 2 years, he's been active and healthy. Thriving in a 2.5gallon tank.

The week of July 4th, we upgraded to a 10g tank. Added a black moor and a sucker fish. And a bubble strip. Followed protocol as we understood it to introduce the new fish. The black moor didn't make it. The sucker (Joyle) and Michaelangelo seemed fine.

Week of July 15, the tank started losing water. We assumed a leak, got a new tank and started the whole process over again. Turned out not to be the tank but a defect in the filter that overflowed the water instead of filtering it back into the tank. My husband decided not to put a filter in it after the change to prevent overflow.

We went out of town 7/19-23. Leaving a family member to care for the animals. Returned home to find Michaelangelo turning black.

I scoured the internet looking for causes. Landed on ammonia poisoning. Got a test kit from Walmart, just strips no real info. In 5 days, we've done two 40% water changes. Removes the bubble strip. Clean filter in. According to the strips, ammonia is at 0 again. But Michaelangelo is not back to normal.

I've watched for the symptoms I read online. He occasionally gasps but not at the top. He's definitely less social but I didnt notice any lethargy until today. I did see his gills spazzing 2 days ago but nothing consistent or since.

I attached pictures...

I'm thinking to get real testing stuff to see if any further water treatment needs done. Then just watch and see if his behavior gets better/worse. Mostly - I don't want him to be suffering. We may not have been knowledgeable in his proper care, but we did our best with what we had and we love him.

Any advice would be so helpful!!!
 

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Your fish has ammonia burns. I'm guessing your tank isn't cycled???? My advice would be to start doing 50% water changes every other day to keep the water free of or at least very low in ammonia. If you can buy an API master test kit (Amazon.com) I would order one asap. This will measure your ammonia, nitrites and nitrates. It will also give you a gauge on how frequent you need to change the water. Essentially, you will be doing a fish in cycle on your tank at this point and this requires frequent water changes. I would also be investing in a hang on back filter....rated for a 20 to 30 gallon tank.....to get that water turned over quite a bit.

An oranda can change colors with age but I don't think that's the issue here. You said you have a sucker fish...I'm assuming a pleco? What type of pleco is it?? Pictures of him would help identify if you don't know. Also, your tank is to small to house an oranda and pleco. This will cause you water quality issues. I would suggest a 30 gallon tank. Size of fish is a consideration in tank size but so is bio load (fish poo) and you happen to have two heavy pooper's for fish. I'd also suggest getting a Python gravel vacuum to clean up your tank during water changes.
 
Thank you! I'll start the every other day changes today and update when the test kit comes in.
 
My master test kit is out for delivery. But I'll be leaving soon and might not get to test til in the morning. Wanted to update.

Good news - with consistent water changes and a new plant to help healthy bacteria growth, he at least doesn't look worse...

Test results by tmrw!
 

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Good deal. Just keep that water pristine and if you see results, keep after it. Your cycle will take up to 8 weeks generally so patience and a little work will be needed.
 
Test results!!

Ph
7.8

Ammonia
0.75

Nitrite
1.0

Nitrate
30

And I remembered a picture of the sucker.
 

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Ya your gonna have to do a couple of 50% water changes to get that ammonia down and the nitrite very low. Nitrates shouldn't go over 40 ppm.....your at 30 so not bad. If your getting nitrates your tank then you should be cycled. That looks like a common pleco so you will probably have to re-home him or take him to an LFS at some point. They get to large for your tank size.
 
Makes sense. I remember the one my parents had in high school got to be over 10in.

The incorrect "common knowledge" is to keep the population lower than recommended for volume and fish won't grow bigger than their environment. The info sheet that came with the 10gallon said it would hold up to 4 cold water fish... ��

Thank you for all the help. Truly. I'll keep up the water changes and update next week.
 
5 days later.

Ph
8.0
Ammonia
0
Nitrite
0
Nitrate
40

Ph came up but everything else is perfect!
His behavior has been back to normal until today. Today, he's pretty lethargic and hanging out on the bottom of the tank, not moving unless startled. His fins and color are starting to get better (pictures). You said 8 weeks or so for real results. Should I be concerned with the lethargy? Or just continue to be patient?
 

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I’m shocked no one has mentioned this unless I missed it but you also need to get water conditioner and add it according to the directions on the bottle... the most commonly used one is called Prime... this is VERY important that you use water conditioner with EVERY water change as it takes out the chlorine and or chloramines and also can help detoxify ammonia and nitrites... you may be at 0’s now but that won’t last long... you will get crazy high spikes that could potentially kill him during the cycling period... has anyone explained to you how cycling works (properly explained)
Also I would suggest in investing in either tetra safe start or dr Tim’s one and only... these products are basically the only 2 that can allow you you have a fish in cycle work properly as they contain the good bacteria that you need to start your cycle and keep it under control.... as for your tank... it’s overstocked... the 2 fish you have are 2 of the biggest waste producers there can be...your readings are likely 0’s because of the water changes and unless you want to continue to do that many forever I suggest you get a bigger tank or re home/return your pleco ...if it is a common pleco the recommended tank size for a full grown one is anywhere from 100 gallons to 150 gallons... and that’s JUST for the pleco... no other fish...
What type of filter did you buy? My advice is to stay away from the filters that come with the prepackaged cartridges as eveytime you have to throw it away you are throwing away the majority of your beneficial bacteria... therefore your cycle will basically start again or at the very least have a mini cycle.... be prepared for a long (fish in cycling can take longer if not done right from the start) it will be stressful and even more stressful if you don’t have the right sizes tank for your fish.... if I can help in anyway please feel free to ask away and I’ll answer the best I can
 
Well your tank appears to be cycled with those numbers. Nitrates are on the high end at 40. Change the water a little more frequently or more of it. What has your water change schedule been.....% and frequency?

Hard to say why he's had a bad day today when he's been doing better. Just continue doing what you are doing and keeping the water clean until he makes a full recovery.
 
Ya your gonna have to do a couple of 50% water changes to get that ammonia down and the nitrite very low. Nitrates shouldn't go over 40 ppm.....your at 30 so not bad. If your getting nitrates your tank then you should be cycled. That looks like a common pleco so you will probably have to re-home him or take him to an LFS at some point. They get to large for your tank size.
For a beginner I wouldn’t tell her that.... some tap water (such as mine) has nitrAtes in it already.... straight out of the tap my water has 40-60ppm of nitrate.... I doubt they is cycled yet judging by what I’ve read... and I doubt they have even thought about testing their tap water because they are so worried about their fish (which no doubt is expected)
But I would definitely test the tap water or advise someone to test their tap water for ammonia, nitrites and nitrAtes and many people have these naturally in their primary water source... I have to use purigen in my tanks to lower the nitrAtes because water changes would do nothing for me....
 
For a beginner I wouldn’t tell her that.... some tap water (such as mine) has nitrAtes in it already.... straight out of the tap my water has 40-60ppm of nitrate.... I doubt they is cycled yet judging by what I’ve read... and I doubt they have even thought about testing their tap water because they are so worried about their fish (which no doubt is expected)
But I would definitely test the tap water or advise someone to test their tap water for ammonia, nitrites and nitrAtes and many people have these naturally in their primary water source... I have to use purigen in my tanks to lower the nitrAtes because water changes would do nothing for me....
You are free to add whatever you like to the convo.

Either way, she's stuck doing a fish in cycle and needs to do regular water changes. Her nitrates went up in a week and zeroed out ammonia and nitrites. Sounds like a cycle to me
 
You are free to add whatever you like to the convo.

Either way, she's stuck doing a fish in cycle and needs to do regular water changes. Her nitrates went up in a week and zeroed out ammonia and nitrites. Sounds like a cycle to me
They have also been doing basically 100% water changes... no one has asked them when they are doing the testing... what if she’s doing a water change and then testing right away... you will get 0’s... no one has told them to test the water before the water changes... and if she’s doing basically a 100% water change every day she may be keeping it at zeros just from the water changes... doesn’t mean the cycle is done... that’s why I advised her to add dr Tim’s one and only or TSS.... also no one has told her she has to add water conditioner every time she does a water change... or asked if she’s scooping the water for testing right off the top of the tank (can get false readings that way) I just don’t see how with such a huge bioload in a small tank that’s over stocked she could be done a cycle already.... or if she is adding any chemicals at all to her tank... some can give false readings... there’s a lot of variables... like I said she hasn’t even tested her tap water as far as we know... if you took an uncycled tank... did a big water change like she is... and then tested right away you would most likely get 0’s and just because she is showing nitrAtes means nothing because as I mentioned I have naturally occurring ones in my tap water....
if she wants to see if she’s cycled she should stop with the water changes and then see what happens... because if she is cycled then everything should stay at 0 with the exception of nitrAtes.... I was not trying to contradict or argue with you I was just pointing out that those numbers don’t necessarily mean she’s cycled... she needs to do twice daily testing and stop the water changes if she wants to find out... problem is we don’t know what she has for biomedia or a filter... maybe someone suckered her into buying ammonia remover or something.... there’s just a lot of missing info to say because she sees nitrAtes she’s cycled.., I have had tanks that were cycling and the nitrites bounced around a lot before actually completely cycling... every one’s is different... I’ve has understocked tanks show 0’s for a day or 2 and then shoot back up... we don’t know if she’s been feeding the fish... like I said not trying to argue... just don’t want her to think it’s cycled and then it turns out it’s not and stop water changes and testing and then everything sky rocket on her that’s all... :) sorry if it came across rude... it was not meant to be
 
If that was the case she would have zero nitrates as well...but point taken. If she has 40 ppm nitrates in her tap then that would be some sort of record. I don't think she's doing 100% water changes a day?? I don't remember me telling her to do that or her saying she did that.

The fastest I ever cycled a tank was when I was new and overstocked a tank and had an out break of ich. 3 weeks and it cycled so it's not impossible. Also she's ran that tank for 5 weeks. Also not uncommon to cycle that fast.

I know you are on a cycle kick but her fish has ammonia burns and needs clean water so she's going to have to do frequent water changes regardless. We know when she waited to see how things went her fish became ill. I do agree with your cycling argument but she's also battling with a sick fish not healthy fish in a fish in cycle.

Never once did I tell her to stop water changes. In fact I told her to do daily partials if I remember correctly. Can't go wrong with that. But you are more than welcome to address all of these things with her. I think her fish is coming along ok right now and her water is reading out a lot better than before. If you got more to add then that's great.
 
I’m not going to argue... I just finished telling you that I have over 40 in mine... do you know where she lives? People on well water actually more then not have naturally occurring nitrAtes... it’s not uncommon... do a search a guarantee you will find a TON of people that do... but she can decide what to do... she’s a big girl... if she’s cycled why are you still telling her to do so many water changes?? She shouldn’t need to be changing it that often if she is...
 
I'm on well water. I have 1 ppm nitrates. I get yearly water reports but you made a good point in testing the tap water. The fact her nitrates were lower a couple weeks ago before frequent water changes tells me her tap water more than likely isn't 40ppm.

If you followed, she had ammonia and nitrites on top of a sick fish and that was the reason I advised her to do several water changes frequently. Fast forward a week, she has no ammonia, no nitrites and a higher nitrate reading. At 40ppm she's pushing the limits IMO so I advised her to up the percentage and frequency and then asked where she was at in these areas presently.....which we haven't heard yet. Idk what her schedule is with water changes at this point and advised her to keep it clean. A goldfish in a 10g is gonna produce some waste and frequent water changes won't hurt it.

If you'd like to add to what I'm saying or refute it I'm cool with that. I'm sure you are thinking of things I haven't and that's what's great about different perspectives and dialogue here.
 
I did read it and all I was suggesting was that people do in fact have nitrAtes in there water... it’s not uncommon to have high numbers like me... it depends on a number of factors... and I have over 40 at my house... also considering it was not that long of a time frame and she has a fish in a 10g that’s meant for a 20-30g I just didn’t want to get her hopes up is all... and I wanted to make sure she was adding prime or at least something to condition her water... no one seems to have mentioned it to her and if she’s new she might not know... we also don’t know what kind of filter she is running... if it has decent biomedia it could be likely she is cycled but I also wanted her to know if it’s the kind with the prepackaged inserts to not throw the dirt one away until it was seeded... it just seems like that small of a tank (which are usually less forgiving to begin with) was cycled that quickly and considering she also has a common pleco in it.... that’s a lot of waste to convert in that short of time and from what I understood they just got a new filter... places will often try and sell ammonia removers and such which can hinder the cycle.... so it may look cycled.... I’m not really disagreeing with you that it’s possible I just found it quite unlikely with such an overstocked tank and brand new filter...
again I was never trying to be argumentative there are just a lot of unknowns because she hasn’t replied... so let’s hope that’s a good thing and everything is and has been going better :)
 
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