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Old 04-18-2005, 07:46 PM   #1
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unhealthy guppy and pale white plecostomus

Hello I'm new here, and yes I've used a forum before so don't flame me...

Ok I have been doing freshwater aquariums since 1998...
Tank Specs:
1: Half Hex aka: old style pentagon 44 gallon tank
tank age: 5 years
Filters:
1: H.O.T Magnum
Ver. Hang on
age: 1 1/2 years

I hope this enough..
anyways I decided to demo my tank and start over, I've been doing very well with whatever was left of my fish.. which were
3: cory catfish
1: 6" feeder goldfish
1: bleeding heart tetra
1: redtail shark
1: strip tetra
1: red eye fish
anyways I was going to let them die naturally, so I turned off filtration system for 8 months and I still wasn't able to kill them, so I gave them away.. so now I have a fresh start on my tank..
After a week of resetting it up, new gravel, three new medium size rocks to add to the realism. I was happy with the new setup... after about a good 48 hours to cure the water I decided to buy some fish. I bought
1: plecostomus
2: emerald green cory catfish
4: neon tetra
2: female guppies
2: male guppies
anyways its been 24 hours, and I noticed that one of my guppies have this white spot like an abrasion near the left gills. Missing scales, pale white around the the missing scales...
it's in a dying mood. You know flipping around, unable to balance itself.
I really don't know what to do. My ph is in the light blue, and no traces of ammonia. I don't know my nirite or nirate is.. I have an old test kit, so its not updated to the latest testing. anyways the other guppies are fine or look fine to me.. except for this male orange fin guppy likes to hang around at the surface, while the females swim normally....
I also noticed my plecostomus is somewhat pale white its still alive.. and right now it seems that some of his color is returning, I have been working on the tank since 3pm est.
I'm just worried about this one guppy that has this abrasion.. I was wondering if there is anything I can do?
is it too late and let him die or is there something I can do to save him and nurse him back to health?
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Old 04-18-2005, 09:24 PM   #2
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[center:80e5f73e10] Welcome to AA, Mad Professor! [/center:80e5f73e10]

Your tank is cycling and although you do not see ammonia, the fish could be feeling the affects of an ammonia spike, or they could be doing poorly from nitrite poisoning. Get lquid test kits ASAP for ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate.
There is an article on cycling in the Articles section, please read it to understand what your fish are going through. Neon and guppies are not very hardier and may not make it through the cycling process.

As for the abbrassions, has any other fish been nipping at the guppy?

How is the pleco now? Still pale? What type of pleco is it?
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Old 04-18-2005, 09:27 PM   #3
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I think your problem is the tank didnt cycle and there isnt enough good bactia in it, the male guppys seems to have taken a hard hit from it as well and might die. Seeing as he isnt swimming to good the other fish might bite him or attack him I would say thats where the missing scales are comeing from, do a 30% water change for him and cross your fingers because with small none-hardy fish you really need to cycle your tanks.
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Old 04-18-2005, 09:30 PM   #4
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ahh we posted at the same time lol
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Old 04-18-2005, 09:53 PM   #5
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that wouldn't make sense, since this is a new setup, just with the same tank and water from the last setup.. yeah I have stored the water for about a week..
I reuse all my old water and just replenish the last 30% lost from the transfer.. yeah the abbrassion guppy is on its last few moments.. no I havn't seen any aggressive fights in the tank.
but the good news is the the pleco is doing better.. I have been adjusting the PH and watching the temps.. and I'm using old data from my last setup and fish, to make the adjustments.. since I've kept being told to do vacuum/gravel and water cycles, which I have never done in the last 7 years.. I don't know I have been really lucky on balancing the tank and leaving it like that for long periods.... so you guys may call me a lair for posting such nonfactual information.... but I have done it...
anyways.. another theory that has come to mind is that this guppy was maybe injured during capture at the petstore..
I'll keep an eye on the tank while I'll go back to the petstore and try my luck on an exchange..

Edit: The pelco color has somewhat return to normal
and have noticed one of my female guppies are pregnant.. I didn't notice it until I started working on the tank...
LET THE BREEDING BEGIN!!!!!1111oneoneone
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Old 04-18-2005, 11:07 PM   #6
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Re: unhealthy guppy and pale white plecostomus

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mad Professor
yes I've used a forum before so don't flame me...

I hope this enough..
So you've used a forum before, but didn't happen to notice a sticky topic called "Before posting about unhealthy fish, read this!" right at the top? Otherwise you would know if the information you gave was "enough."

PS WTH is "curing" the water for 48 hours? And what does reusing old water have to do with anything? Bacterial colonies don't live in the water.
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Old 04-19-2005, 02:04 AM   #7
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Welcome to this site its great btw 8)
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Old 04-19-2005, 03:00 AM   #8
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Re: unhealthy guppy and pale white plecostomus

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fish Surgeon
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mad Professor
yes I've used a forum before so don't flame me...

I hope this enough..
So you've used a forum before, but didn't happen to notice a sticky topic called "Before posting about unhealthy fish, read this!" right at the top? Otherwise you would know if the information you gave was "enough."

PS WTH is "curing" the water for 48 hours? And what does reusing old water have to do with anything? Bacterial colonies don't live in the water.
yeah thanks for flaming me... now I really don't feel all too welcome here.. when I needed some help, I had 2 members trying to help me and you come in flaming me... which is also consider flaming spam in a gaming forum... oh yeah about the unhealthy fish topic.. I read it I just never complied with it...

anyways
Curing the water is when you let it all settle down and filter and adding stress coat before adding fish in a time period... since the guppy died.. there must me something wrong with the tank...
plus the pleaco color went back to pale white again....
I hate to lose all of my stock... I'll take a picture of the dead guppy and the pale white plecostomus, and I noticed some thing on one of the neons so I'll take a pic of that too...
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Old 04-19-2005, 03:41 AM   #9
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I'm going to go ahead and double post, to post my pic I know theres a edit button, but I choose not.
anyways I got the pics but it may not be in high quality...
so anyways here I go...

I decided to take the pic of the whole tank, just to show you what I am working with...
My Tank
Tank Again

The pleaco and the weird thing is that his color returns when I turn on the light. Is he afraid of the dark??
the pleaco
Pleaco side

this is the dead guppy I'm talking about. as you can see in this picture..
only one side is affected..
dead guppy
dead guppy2

This is the neon, but whats that on his head? is this form of disease or infection, contagious? and is it spreading to other fishes?
neon head
neon again
I'm kind of worried...
any help is appreicated....

Update:
The neon is on it's last few hours... and from its progression, its doing the same thing as the dead guppy... left side deterierating, and missing scales, almost like an abrasion.. I have checked on it every 20 minutes...
neon also shows abnormal behavior.. renegades from the group.. also another one of my neon is doing the same but he looks healthy.
so maybe later this morning I'll run down to the petstore and pick up an updated test kit... and remember I'm using these fish as test subjects in the tank.. before I can add more.... I was hoping to get lucky like my last couple of setups where it was very stable..

update2: its 5am and I have checked the neon subject, and has now been declared decease at 4:58 this morning...
heres some pics it very hard to see where the affected area is but it at the head just above the gills..
neondead
neondead2
so if anymore become affected, action will be taken....
I'll update you in a few hours...

update3: its 7:03am...
School of neons split up, showing pale colors.. Orange fin guppy showing signs of fatigue... catfish inactive.. pleaco color returns to some what pale... female guppies are rabid, no fights but going around the tank like if they were in a race or something...
Pictures:
neon1
neon2
neon3
neon1 again
neon2 back end
pleaco on rock
orange fin guppy
racing guppies

I could use some help about now....

update4: after some hard thinking... I have begun to realize that the lighting I have in the tank right now might be affecting the fish... at 5am I turned off the light and went back to bed. At 7am I came back and turned on the light and they started to do what was mention in update 3...
I left the light on for about a good 10 minutes while I wrote update3. I came back and I noticed that they were back to normal...
the neons are back into a group again and the orange fin guppy is with the female guppies and the pleaco turn pale white again... the pleaco's color return when I turned off the light and went away for acouple of hours and when I turned on the light the fishes were doing what was mention in update3, then I saw the pleaco's color return to pale white...
is this some sort of connection?
so now I'll leave the light on and see what happens, right now I think I'll skip work and get some actual rest.... then go to the petstore and buy a new test kit... speaking of test the PH is stable at lightish blue.. and no traces of ammonia.. but I don't think I can trust this old test kit...
anyways...
can someone prove these theories?
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Old 04-19-2005, 10:35 AM   #10
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Quote:
anyways I decided to demo my tank and start over
This has led me to believe the tank has not cycled. Bacteria lives on the substrate and in the filter. Some live in the water, but not enough to skip the cycle if the substrate and filter were changed, which I cannot determine.
Quote:
so you guys may call me a lair for posting such nonfactual information
Who's calling you a liar? Fish are best kept in clean environments when the water is regularly changed, but I know fish can do well in stale water, as I watched my stepfather keep fish for years

Let's all stop talking about flaming, I think people are reading into things too much.

You need to know the water parameters ASAP (ammonia, nitrite, nitrate). You said you adjust the pH~How? Why? What is the pH out of the tap once it has sat for a few hours (true pH has to be tested after the gases equilibrate). What is the exact value of the pH? What does light blue indicate?

Is the temperature in the tank stable?

I don't think the light has anything to do with the fishes' behavior, unless it is affecting tank temp.

Are the fishes' fins clamped? Are they hanging out at the surface?

Quote:
and have noticed one of my female guppies are pregnant.. I didn't notice it until I started working on the tank...
LET THE BREEDING BEGIN!!!!!
This may actually be a sign of severe stress. They may be breeding because their lives are ending, or they fear they will end soon.

Since all the fish seem to be affected, it could be disease, or it could be water quality issues, or both. I will check back often. Please post the water parameters and we will go from there.
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Old 04-19-2005, 06:47 PM   #11
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The test results are in

High Range Ph is: 7.5-7.0 somewhere around there
regular PH is: 7.4-7.0
Ammonia is: 1.0 <---updated
Nitrite is: 0ppm
Nitrate is: 160+ ppm

yeah I got the test kit but 160+ppm I think the fish should be dead by now... anyways I'll test ammonia again and nitrate to see if they are accurate...

Update1: I have test the ammonia and nitrate and and ammonia is at 1.0 and nitrate is 160+ppm
plus I have a bottle of ammquel+.. will that help??
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Old 04-19-2005, 09:32 PM   #12
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I have recycle the tank 3 times... and I have eliminated the ammonia to 0ppm.
I also was only able to bring down the Nitrate to 80ppms but I think thats still too high... this is my 4 recycle...
I think the tubs that I stored the old setup water in, were contaminated and the pond pump & hose were contaminated which was confirmed with the test so back to the old carrying the jug act...

update: after 4 hours of recycling the water, 19 tests, 60 trips to the kitchen sink.. I have the nitrate down to 5.0 -- 0.0ppm... somewhere around there.. is that still too high???
And I also lost the orange fin guppy... no he didn't die.. he got into my water jug, down the drain and then he died.. I tried to stop the water from going down but he got through my big hand down the drain... I'm a little sad about that... but the good thing after 23 mini recycles I was able to reset the water to tap...
I'll keep you posted...
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Old 04-20-2005, 12:08 AM   #13
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STOP!!!!! Well, it's too late. This will sound odd, but you should never alter the water parameters so aggressively. A 50% change today, followed by one tomorrow and then the next day would have been fine.
Most fish handle nitrate between 40-80ppm just fine. A cycled tank will have some nitrates.
The good news: the bacteria are working hard to cycle the tank for you. In a cycled tank, there should be no dectable ammonia nor nitrite and a bit of nitrates. While the tank is cycling, it will be necessary to do a 20-30% PWC every other day. This will keep the fish in okay levels and allow the bacteria to get the needed ammonia and nitrite to reproduce.
Do you have a gravel vacuum?
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Old 04-20-2005, 01:22 AM   #14
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Quote:
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STOP!!!!! Well, it's too late. This will sound odd, but you should never alter the water parameters so aggressively. A 50% change today, followed by one tomorrow and then the next day would have been fine.
Most fish handle nitrate between 40-80ppm just fine. A cycled tank will have some nitrates.
The good news: the bacteria are working hard to cycle the tank for you. In a cycled tank, there should be no dectable ammonia nor nitrite and a bit of nitrates. While the tank is cycling, it will be necessary to do a 20-30% PWC every other day. This will keep the fish in okay levels and allow the bacteria to get the needed ammonia and nitrite to reproduce.
Do you have a gravel vacuum?
wait a minute I could of stop at 20 or 40ppm..
anyways....

In my past 7 year history, I have never gravel vac my tank nor did partial water change.... once I got it stable I kept a close eye at it for dying fish which got boring because none of them died... so this is the first contamination problem that I have..... no gravel vacs... just a jug to replenish the water that evaporates... all I do is build up the ecosystem and from there on, its on its own cycle... I got the idea from science except no CO2 or real plants are needed... the temps are kept at 74-76 depending on room temp and food excess is given to the cory catfishes.. and whatever debris falls to the botton which makes 1% immunity in the tank but are still prone to ammonia and nitrite & nitrate.. Ph does become a problem in 2 years.
A solution was created to do a partial manitaince..
store the fishes in temporary quarters... rip up the plants make a mess of the tank and let the filters take most of it back in... after a good 6 hours, I do 50% water cycle to get most of the "Dirty" water, and replant.. after another good 6 hours..it ready to go for another 2 years... drop the fishes in, change the filter and do monthly manitaince on filters.. I have setup 4 other tanks with the same set up... only one of my clients tanks failed because of incorrect filter bag.... I understand the need of gravel vac.. but my cory catfishes did an awsome job on manitaince of the tank... and remember I wanted the fish in my old setup to die naturally and I turned off filtration. After 8 months went by.. I still wasn't able to kill them and that was because the tank ecosystem was too strong... so I gave them away....

so theres my story on why I don't have gravel vacs and why I don't do water cycles....
maybe I should check my neighbors tank just to make sure....
he has a 7" oscar and one 8" pleaco in a 30gallon tank and he setup just like me, no gravel vacs or water cycle...
I'll watch and see what happens.. plus I'm toughening up my fishes for hurricane season.. if we lose power we won't be able to filter the tank..
oh yeah when hurricane charlie hit, I lost power for 10days.... I wasn't even aware of the fishes. I was too busy pulling trees out of my yard..
they were all still alive when power was restored..
so maybe my ecosystem theory works.. I'm not sure until I test my neighbors tank..
I'll keep you posted...
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Old 04-20-2005, 01:43 AM   #15
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I don't do water cycles....
I don't think you fully understand what cycling the water means. It only needs to happen once in the tank and with regular upkeep, the water parameters will stay in healthy ranges.

I'm not going to argue with your method. Plenty of people do it; however, it is a stagnant "ecosystem" you have created. What if you never opened the windows or left the house. The air becomes stale, not toxic, just not great. Keep in mind that fish evolved in moving water. Water is always replenishing itself through evaporation, rain and current. When you allow debris to build up at the bottom of the tank over a period of months.... I said I won't argue the point and I have other things to do. You went out and bought the test kits and it's obvious that you care about your fish. Consider a touch more upkeep than simply topping off the tank.
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Old 04-20-2005, 02:23 AM   #16
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actually I said at the begining of this topic that these were new fishes and the old ones were given away and the tank was a new fresh start..
new rocks and plants and gravel... since I had the old gravel since I ever started this hobby... but I never had a problem with stagnant "ecosystem".
I have a alot of people say that my tank was cleanest ever seen.. they always ask how often I do Water Cycles or PWC or whatever and gravel vacs.. and I like to go like this "Gravel Vacs? PWC? What in the world are you talking about?"
It freaks them out when they find out that I don't do any of that..
anyways...
I check the filter media every month, to make sure its not losing performance... and I give it a good scrub down on the nylon filter sleeve, and I replace the active carbon stuff every month...
so I do some upkeep.. but I like my tank, low manitaince. and more enjoying....

but now I have 2 questions...
1. when can I add more fishes to my tank?
2. what in the world is a brackish?

thanks for advice.. I really appreciated it..
I'll keep you posted on the tank setup...
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Old 04-20-2005, 08:56 AM   #17
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There seems to be a breakdown in communication here. A cycle is nothing like a partial water change. It is happening rather you want it or not. You don't have to do anything for it to happen except have fish and water in the tank. The fish are gonna produce ammonia and that starts the cycle.

Brackish is the middle ground between freshwater and marine.
I'm not sure if you should add fish or how many.
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Old 04-21-2005, 08:29 AM   #18
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My pregnant guppy just unload her fry in my tank...
I didn't noticed it until I fed them this morning...
theres about 5-6 fry in the tank.
and my other female guppy got pregnant 2 days ago.. or at least 2days go.. while I had the male guppy before he went down the kitchen sink drain...
I need some suggestions? or recommendation?
I don't have a quarantine tank... well I did, but it got wrecked by the hurricane... I never replaced it... but If you guys think I need one, I'll get one.. I also have this old net containment thing, I forgot the name of it.. but it will have to be repair...
I turned off my H.O.T Magnum because of its powerful suction and out flow.. but I wasn't sure if that was ok.. but it was a safety precaution taken.. until I get a reply.. plus my nitrate raise a little bit over night.. ammo is zero...

oh thanks fluff but I'm not good with terms....
if you know what I mean...
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Old 04-21-2005, 08:56 AM   #19
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You could set up a QT tank for the fry, or just get another breeding net to house them. Be sure to give them something to hide in. Plants, fake or real. They can eat flake food but it will need to be crushed into a powder so it's small enough for them to eat.
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