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Old 03-12-2011, 01:22 PM   #1
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Weak Angels?

I have to wonder if the angels I'm getting are just weak fish. I've lost 2 and have another that's got the rest of the day to straighten up or it's getting euthanized. They start out just staying in the same place for a day. The next day, they're swimming sideways, doing backflips, and staying up at the top. The next morning they're laying on the bottom of the tank dead. No noticable signs of any disease, not affecting any of the other fish. Tank is heavily planted, all natural decor. I have one angel that's been in the tank for 3 weeks tomorrow. The remaining 2 have been here about 1 week. The first one died about 1.5 weeks ago. The second this morning.

And just in case somebody wants to know, though I can't see why since I'm such a stickler for good water params, here they are...

Ammonia-0
Nitrite-0
Nitrate-0 (though that will change soon hopefully! Plants are suffering)
Temp-78
Co2- 30ppm
pH- 7.2

Doing 50% PWC's every 3-4 days

Stock: 3 angels, 11 kerri tetras, 4 brochis cories, 2 guppies and however many fry they had day before yesterday.
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Old 03-13-2011, 01:05 PM   #2
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Well, that angel died overnight.. I'm down to 2 angels. Everybody else looks happy and healthy
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Old 03-13-2011, 06:34 PM   #3
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Sorry to hear about your angels, gl figuring it out sorry I can't help.
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Old 03-13-2011, 08:17 PM   #4
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I found out today its not my fault at least... I had to go down to the LFS and just asked them if they had any issues. He said they had several of them exibiting the same behavior. Said he won't be buying them from the same supplier anymore because of that.
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Old 03-14-2011, 11:39 AM   #5
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Are they perhaps hybrid? O.o
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Old 03-14-2011, 11:56 AM   #6
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Sorry to hear about your troubles man. We've seen the same thing from some suppliers too and have decided to go only with home raised angels because of it.

Dre- The vast majority of angels in the hobby are likely to be hybrids (scalare / leopoldi), but they've been selectively bred for so long that there's really no telling for certain. The more they are bred for a specific trait (color, finnage, etc.) the weaker they tend to become (like many other fish).
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Old 03-14-2011, 12:24 PM   #7
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I guess what I mean is are they a hybrid of two unlikely parents, thus making them a weak offspring? For example some cichlids hybrids don't last long while others do.
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Old 03-14-2011, 12:44 PM   #8
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Angels are in genus pterophyllum and can hybridize amongst eachother. There are three species of angels (p. altum, p. scalare, and p. leopoldi) all of which are cichlids. The angel common in the hobby is a derivitive (most likely) of scalare / leopoldi most commonly referred to as p. scalare. Selective breeding of the same species doesn't produce hybrids, it just makes the gene pool shallower resulting in weak offspring.
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Old 03-14-2011, 02:16 PM   #9
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I want to get some angel fish soon, so this is good stuff to know
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Old 03-14-2011, 03:03 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mfdrookie516 View Post
I found out today its not my fault at least... I had to go down to the LFS and just asked them if they had any issues. He said they had several of them exibiting the same behavior. Said he won't be buying them from the same supplier anymore because of that.
Sorry to hear about your lost Jonathan . I have 4 angels myself and reading about your problems causes me concern.

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Originally Posted by HN1 View Post
Dre- The vast majority of angels in the hobby are likely to be hybrids (scalare / leopoldi), but they've been selectively bred for so long that there's really no telling for certain. The more they are bred for a specific trait (color, finnage, etc.) the weaker they tend to become (like many other fish).
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Angels are in genus pterophyllum and can hybridize amongst eachother. There are three species of angels (p. altum, p. scalare, and p. leopoldi) all of which are cichlids. The angel common in the hobby is a derivitive (most likely) of scalare / leopoldi most commonly referred to as p. scalare. Selective breeding of the same species doesn't produce hybrids, it just makes the gene pool shallower resulting in weak offspring.
HN1;
I think I must be misunderstanding your posts. If I understand what I've read, you're saying most of the angels being kept by hobbyist are a hybrid of the scalare and leopoldi species. Are you saying that same species offspring can resemble the hybrids because of years of selective breeding and that those are the weaker fish? I would just like to know so I can have a better understanding of the angelfish.
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Old 03-14-2011, 03:28 PM   #11
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Sorry to hear about your lost Jonathan . I have 4 angels myself and reading about your problems causes me concern.





HN1;
I think I must be misunderstanding your posts. If I understand what I've read, you're saying most of the angels being kept by hobbyist are a hybrid of the scalare and leopoldi species. Are you saying that same species offspring can resemble the hybrids because of years of selective breeding and that those are the weaker fish? I would just like to know so I can have a better understanding of the angelfish.
Yes. The "popular" theory on the angels that are most established in the hobby is that back in the day (like 1940s-ish) they crossed scalare with leopoldi. Chalk that part up as pure trivia. They (common hobby angels) are referred to as p. scalare.

The color morphs and varieties are endless, but only a very few of them are actually hybrids. All just from my understanding and I'd welcome someone with more angel geneology knowledge to chime in. The guys who really know angels, REALLY know them and have a ton more knowledge than I. I get lost when it comes to the genetics.

Offspring from a cross of "D/+ - Z/+ - V/+ : Zebra Lace Veil"
and "g/g - Z/+ - V/+ : Gold Veil"
Color Characteristics:
+/g - +/+ : 12.50% : Silver
+/g - Z/+ : 25.00% : Zebra
+/g - Z/Z : 12.50% : Zebra(dd)
D/g - +/+ : 12.50% : Hybrid Black
D/g - Z/+ : 25.00% : Zebra Hybrid Black
D/g - Z/Z : 12.50% : Zebra(dd) Hybrid Black

Fin / Body Shape Characteristics:
+/+ : 25.00% : Standard-Fin
V/+ : 50.00% : Veil
V/V : 25.00% : Super-Veil


^ is pretty much just greek to me and there are new combos not represented. Check out The Angelfish Society.
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Old 03-14-2011, 04:52 PM   #12
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Cool info dude. I think I may just get about 12 from a local breeder that just needs to offload some. They're $1 ea and about the size of a nickel (veil tails, marbles, blue, just about every possible type). Let them pair up, then sell the remaining 8.

I guess, as bad as it sounds, I am somewhat relieved that the LFS is having the same problem. It just sets my mind at ease that, after all the advice I've given about water changes, cycling, etc, I'm not really doing something wrong causing the deaths.
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Old 03-14-2011, 05:11 PM   #13
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Cool info dude. I think I may just get about 12 from a local breeder that just needs to offload some. They're $1 ea and about the size of a nickel (veil tails, marbles, blue, just about every possible type). Let them pair up, then sell the remaining 8.

I guess, as bad as it sounds, I am somewhat relieved that the LFS is having the same problem. It just sets my mind at ease that, after all the advice I've given about water changes, cycling, etc, I'm not really doing something wrong causing the deaths.
Is your breeder local? If so, do you think they'll ship some angels?
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Old 03-14-2011, 05:12 PM   #14
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BTW, I read the article at the link you provided HN1. Like you a lot of it is greek to me. But it is a lot of good info. Thanks!
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