White Spot/bump Above Eye of White Cloud Mountain Minnow

[Kaidonni]

I'm focused on identifying it because I just don't see the water changes being sufficient to fully eliminate it. At some stage, medication will be necessary. I've always been extremely alert to the condition the fish are in, and positively identifying it if it's any sort of parasite will certainly help to calm my obsessive compulsiveness, otherwise I will remain at high alert even after the water changes. I've always been looking for problems on the fish, I've exhausted myself doing that, and now that there is a problem... I want to firm it up as much as possible.

I'm not fearful of medications, I'm just not happy with dosing them just to be safe, because if I jump to conclusions and have to remove it so I can use another medication, that's even more work. I don't see it as over-thinking, if anything in the past I've under-thought and dosed in the hopes that it sorts out whatever I hope it is. I've been through it all before, and am not keen to revisit that kind of situation. It'll only make me more anxious. I just have a different attitude to the use of medication and when to resort to it, so we'll have to agree to disagree on that front.

As to the salt option...WCMM are sensitive to salt, so I'm not keen on that one. I'd be more willing to use the Esha, although it's probably wise if I enquire with Seachem as to the effects that Prime might have on Esha.

I'm looking to get more assistance off family members now, because everything about the fish has exhausted me. I used to test the water quality almost every other day, and now I've managed to get it to every 2-3 weeks and to resist the urge to test when I panic at something. I'll have to do the same with the water changes, because my time is limited. I used to have all the time in the world to spend on this sort of thing, but having a job and other interests, and also wanting to study to further my employment opportunities...it's too much. Especially when one is obsessive compulsive. I already spend far too long cleaning the tank, messing with the filter, making sure everything is put back together properly - again and again, fearing that I'm neglecting the fish or going to cause them harm not doing something.

 

[TMRC Exotics]

I mean no offense here but the compulsiveness here has you stressed unnecessarily. I understand your concern but its no big deal, these things happen. You keep mentioning water changes not getting every speck out but what good has staring at them done. Water changes are a viable solution and its a necessary course of action on almost any disease or parasite. Basically you could be actually getting this stuff out of your water instead of just making posts and being anxious.

 

[Kaidonni]

I've edited my above post now, before seeing you replied. A bit out of sync...I have a habit of editing a lot after the fact.

I did a 50% today. Spent a whole hour and a half cleaning the tank, the filter, and adding the water. I'm still waiting on the tropical specialist to get back to me, I'm keeping him fully updated.

I can't do anything else today, I'll hold back from feeding so the water isn't fouled. I'll get my father to do a 50% water change tomorrow and Tuesday. It's probably more sensible and less stressful - I'm already wound up enough, I don't need to have an excuse to not have the water changed until I get home after work. I can trust him.

One more thing I've considered - if lymphocystis is a possible culprit, it could be the female Minnow broke the cyst it was developing in by brushing past a plant or something else. She hasn't shown any flashing behaviour, and she doesn't appear to be rapid gilling all of the time. The most notable behaviour is when the light is off and she's at the surface for stints at a time, with either rapid gilling or laboured breathing, or both.

 

[TMRC Exotics]

Sounds like a good course of action. I can imagine how worrying this could be with a compulsion problem. Sorry to hear how stressful it can be. But your on the right track and I think it will work out.

Also on a side note I wouldnt clean the filter so laboriously. Some of your good bacteria is likely getting removed. Just flush the gunk and leave the rest be. A little extra algae and stuff in the filter is a good thing.

 

[Kaidonni]

Several photos of the female Minnow in question. You can probably see a bump just behind her right gills (or maybe not, not entirely certain if that's a natural contour to the stripe). That's where the cyst had formed, to the naked eye it looks like there is some remainder of the base of the cyst. Not sure if it'd come up on a video.

 

[Kaidonni]

...and the last two I took.

 

[Kaidonni]

It turns out I didn't get all the snails...there are two remaining. One has disappeared, probably behind the filter, while the other is at the base of one of my Vallisneria (got one off the same plant last week - had to scoop up some pebbles because he fell off as I tried to get him!). What should I do? Should I hunt them down the instant I see them, or is it closing the gate after the horse has bolted? Would it make any difference to potential parasite problems currently, or is it too late? These snails will have been introduced last week or earlier, or been born in the tank - I didn't get any new plants this weekend. I'd say they are pond/bladder snails, the same as the first one - so I need not fear them devouring my plants (I hope not, anyway).

 

[Delapool]

If I remember correctly the male had clamped fins for some time? It's possible this has been around for some time. Fish are fine but get stressed for some reason and off it goes. There was one research paper where an infected fish was traced back to 6 months when it could have possibly been infected.

Esha 2000 I had a look at the ingredients and it's ok is all I can say.

Salt would be worth more research on. I have used it with tetras and catfish - both are meant to be salt sensitive and were fine. I consider salt to be safer alternative than the antiseptic meds.

I'm afraid I have nothing more to offer. I would be interested in what the vet person comes back with.

 

[Kaidonni]

That's a 50% conducted today, ~24-25 litres, with a gravel vac. My father probably wasn't quite as thorough as I would try to be, but given my compulsiveness, I'd probably be even more thorough than most would in this situation.

I'm going to leave it and observe now for a few days, as I was mulling the math over in my head last night - waiting a number of days and then performing another large change (50-60%) is probably better than a third 50% tomorrow. The first would have been a straight 50%, but the second one would only be as half as effective as the first, and a third tomorrow would be a quarter as effective as the first, so there are diminishing returns. I would be diluting the changes more and more as I go along, so the two hardest hitting changes are the first two 50% changes. I might've been better off performing a large 70-80% change in the first place, but two 50% changes is close enough to 75%, and may be less likely to disturb certain water parameters; the third would get me towards 87.5%. Maybe I am over-thinking it a little, but I've been there and done that with thinking a number of much smaller water changes would be fine, and have been advised fewer but larger changes are far more effective.

I'm going to telephone the local fish shop tomorrow because - if this is a parasite - the only route into the tank would have been from that same fish shop, from plants and any stowaway snails. They might have observed a few issues with their fish, so if they have, and if they have treated it - either successfully or unsuccessfully - I might make further progress. Even if they've been unsuccessful, it'll give me further ideas of what it is not. If they haven't experienced any issues, at least I've explored that route. It doesn't hurt to ask politely.

I also took a closer look at the male Minnow after the water change - his spot does seem to have grown, and it does have a translucent edge to it. It's really hard to say what it is. I don't think it's fluffy, it's too regular for that. It's definitely some sort of roundish growth. Very possibly a tumour in his case.

 

[Kaidonni]

No reply all day long at the lfs. The telephone either rang out, or it went to answer-phone. I attempted them multiple times throughout the day, so this does have me a little suspicious. I wouldn't expect them to be that busy all day long.

The vet did confirm that water changes being used to dilute the juvenile stages of parasites is valid, but without knowing the type of parasite, water temperature, etc, that it is impossible to say how often it needs to be done. Apart from that, he hasn't been able to give any diagnosis, and suggests observing is often the best thing to do. Also salt. I don't have any aquarium salt, and I can't get to the lfs in the day, so I'd need to get someone else to pick some up for me.

I'll try the lfs again tomorrow, and if there's still trouble getting them to pick up the phone, it might be my problems are theirs as well...it's certainly unusual. As I've said before, the main transmission route would be from new plants and any stowaway snails, so if there is a parasitic infestation, chances are the lfs may have experienced contamination of their own tanks.

 

[TMRC Exotics]

In response to your final sentence, a few parasites/bacterias can be present in the water column for months before showing symptoms. Some of it will lay mostly dormant until a fish is weak enough that it can take hold.

 

[Kaidonni]

Which doesn't reassure me! Although, there haven't been any new additions except plants for well over a year to a year and a half, possibly longer. I'm just trying to cover all bases, as I haven't had snails for years, and this happening shortly after I start getting snails again seems suspect; it might just be a complete coincidence, but if I can rule it out, that'd be useful.

 

[Kaidonni]

Just conducted the third 50% clean and a thorough gravel vac. Don't think I can be any more thorough than that without taking the plants and vacuuming where they are, but it might be too disruptive - or maybe not, but there probably has to be a line at which to draw the vacuuming. I probably still wouldn't be completely satisfied anyway, and as I've said before, I do not consider it sufficient to eliminate the problem if there are parasites - it's only a stop gap, to buy time. I'd never assume it got rid of all the parasites (except for in unique cases such as camallanus), and I'd be obsessive and alert anyway, watching the fish like an eagle for signs of further trouble.

The first 20 litres was colder than the tank water, so I decided to make the final 5 litres a bit warmer just to off-set. Only took 15-20 minutes to add the water, hope this wasn't too fast. I just had to fit the change in when I could.

I oversaw my father do the gravel vac yesterday, I don't think he was as thorough as I was on Sunday or today. He definitely wasn't, although he did vacuum the substrate and even had to restart the vacuum a number of times due to the pebbles blocking it (filling the main tube halfway!). I'm worrying about that now...

I also hope I washed my hands in cold water enough before conducting the change. I've had scented soap, anti-bacterial handwipe and alcoholic handwash on my hands today...I spent 10-15 minutes thoroughly washing them under cold water, rubbing all over them (not my wrists or my arm, they may have got dunked slightly too into the tank before I restrained myself).

 

[Kaidonni]

I've attached some photos, the quality isn't great. They show that the white spot/cyst has reformed on the female Minnow. It's more visible the closer she is to the front of the tank, but she didn't want to come to the front when I was taking these photos!

The male Minnow still has that spot above his eye, it appears to have grown a little, and it does have a translucent edge when I get a real close-up look at it. Not too sure about his mouth, it doesn’t look too good but no blatantly obvious signs of mouthrot such as a cottony-growth. His mouth is just whitish/pale/discoloured as best I can tell. If he has a tumour and a bacterial infection, it might just be age in his case. It’s definitely a separate issue to the female Minnow.

I’m considering the aquarium salts option – any particular type? Or just aquarium salt sold by any local fish shop? I've got some rock salt from the local fish shop. How should I proceed in dosing for White Cloud Mountain Minnows? Would 1g/litre work out okay? I was considering taking a litre out of the tank, dosing that litre with the salt and letting it dissolve, and then pouring that litre gradually back into the tank. At my tank's volume, I'd be looking at 47-48g.

 

[Kaidonni]

And for good measure, the male Minnow with the spot above his eye...

 

[TMRC Exotics]

I still say as I originally did that the male has a tumor. To my knowledge there isn't much you can do there. I wouldn't fret.

The female, I still have yet to see the growth on her. I mean I am on a phone so its not like I have a big clear display but I haven't seen anything.

I believe its time to slow down and above all stop worrying or stressing over it.

If its isolated to one female for this long then its obviously not some quick multiplying killer like columnaris is, therefore relax a little, watch them and stop letting it stress you so. Fish tanks are supposed to be fun. Possibly consider going ahead with the salt at this point.

If the fungus regrows too much unaffected by salt and becomes an issue then its time to get a medication. I know you don't want to use them but I have had great experiences with meds when I have needed them, even without definitive diagnosis.

 

[Kaidonni]

I did feed a little bit of flake food tonight as I hadn't fed since last Wednesday. The female Minnow with the growth was slow to the punch, and didn't quite know what she was doing - the other Minnows out-competed her - but she did snatch a couple of flakes. Her body is a red-orange-golden colour (possibly normal, each of the Minnows seems to be a slightly different colour, and she does have an orange-golden sheen in videos I filmed back in March and April), and she does look slightly bloated. I'll consider feeding some pea either tomorrow night or Friday, but not much.

 

[Kaidonni]

Another five pics...

She does look fuller in the body from the front, so there may be slight bloating. I can't tell whether it's the remains of the cyst/tissue damage, or some other sort of growth. The pics obviously aren't stellar.

 

[Kaidonni]

The last pic...

 

[Kaidonni]

Last trick up my sleeve with the female Minnow, a quick video I managed to film.