1.500.000 litres - Page 2 - Aquarium Advice

Ardeus · 10-08-2005, 01:56 AM

Lighting suplementing? It needs more light beyond direct sunlight? Meanwhile I'm going to find more info about [acronym:888e3a0267="Algal Turf Scrubber"]ATS[/acronym:888e3a0267]. Thanks.

greenmaji · 10-08-2005, 03:49 AM

I personaly think my [acronym:551a08a090="Algal Turf Scrubber"]ATS[/acronym:551a08a090] thread has more detailed information about [acronym:551a08a090="Algal Turf Scrubber"]ATS[/acronym:551a08a090] then any source Ive found.. I have read the book Dynamic Aquaria the introduction of [acronym:551a08a090="Algal Turf Scrubber"]ATS[/acronym:551a08a090] usage.. Ive asked questions to an aquarist that is currently running an indoor [acronym:551a08a090="Algal Turf Scrubber"]ATS[/acronym:551a08a090] system on his 1850 gallon (roughly 7,000 liter) home aquarium..
an outdoor [acronym:551a08a090="Algal Turf Scrubber"]ATS[/acronym:551a08a090] for a 1,500,000 liter system would need to be roughly 430 square meters of surfase area, thats quite some roof space.. (Im making rough estamates from memory, my thread will have the information needed to build a system) The lighting requirements would be the hardest to estamate because of the natural sunlight being in the equasion.. it would need much less artifical light because of the natural sunlight (no area has 100% sunlight exposure each day)
http://www.aquariumadvice.com/viewtopic.php?t=56247
[acronym:551a08a090="Hope this helps (or) Happy to help"]HTH[/acronym:551a08a090]

Ardeus · 10-09-2005, 12:03 AM

I've been reading the thread and trying to adapt a few things to my original idea.

Since I've around 800 sq meters of roof around the tank I guess I can use simple direct sun light. The water will circle in open air on the roof with 5 cm height. The roof will be covered with wavy removable plastic mesh pads to give support for the algae to grow. The ondulating pattern not only will enlarge the surface available for the algae but will also create waves, although this must be tried out first.

Since I'm talking about a malawi community here, I believe there's a possibility the fish would be interested in cleaning at least some of the pads for me. That way I would take a few pads every other day, put them in the tank for a few days and bring them back to the roof. I don't think it would be a good idea to let the fish go to the roof once a week, lol.

The open air thing worries me cause it can work as an uncontrolled heater during summer and a freezer in the winter. Maybe a solution would be to have the roof mesh pads in white plastic during summer and in a black material that better captures heat during winter.

I must keep both initial and maintenance costs to a minimum to have any chance of doing this cause the income from this thing will be small.

Skyrmir · 10-09-2005, 12:38 AM

I would have to guess if this is going to be above ground a major cost is going to be the tank walls themselves. They are going to need to be re-enforced concrete to be able to hold much depth, more depth thicker concrete. Also if your putting it above ground I would assume it's so you can view the fish from the sides. That's going to require careful design in the glass. I've seen it done with 3 sheets of inch thick plexiglass, but that was for a polar bear exhibit, so maybe it didn't need that much thickness just for the water.

http://www.fnzas.org.nz/articles/tec...lassthickness/

That link is a bit complex on the math side, but it will let you figure out where to plug in your own numbers and figure out what thickness glass you need for the dimensions you want to get. It'll take some digging to find the calculations for plexiglass to compare with.

As for trying to keep with the roof water flow system, you might be able to rig up a holding tank before and after the roof flow for maintaining temperature. Heat the water a bit before letting it flow in the winter, and cooling for the water in the summer. Otherwise even the day/night cycle is going to create some eratic temperature swings. It would require a bit of creative plumbing, but it would most likely be easier to change the temperature on a small volume of water constantly, than to try and maintain the temperature constantly throughout the system. Even if not a holding tank, simply looping the pipes around or inside heaters/coolers to change the temperature as it flowed might work. Either way it will end up being energy intensive, but then locking the temperature for any water mass that size is going to take a lot of energy. Might want to find out how much Lake Malawi changes temperatures during the different seasons to know how big a swing can be tolerated.

Ardeus · 10-09-2005, 01:48 AM

The tank at the end of the roof flow looks like a good idea. And I also remembered that controlling the amount of water being pumped to the roof may also control the temperature. With lower speeds at night (is a full stop possible?), not only the tank remains more termically isolated but also will prevent large amounts of [acronym:58c9e76df3="Carbon dioxide"]CO2[/acronym:58c9e76df3] coming from the algae on the roof to enter the tank.

I'm planning on having the tank running without fish for an year to make adjustments.

I was reading the article on glass thickness. Lot's of talking about the way different glasses crack. I recently posted a thread about "large scale catastrophe". I regret that title... you can imagine the images that came to my mind while reading that article. But the calculations are extremely usefull at this stage so I can have an idea of the costs.

I'm planning on having just two larger windows and not that large really, considering the tank is 30m x 20m x 2.5m. Around 7 meters long by 2 meters high. All the others will be much smaller.

The wall thickness for a 2.5m tank is within what's normal for exterior house walls around here. Traditionally houses have thick walls (sometimes nearing 1 meter).

greenmaji · 10-10-2005, 02:37 AM

Algae does not create [acronym:c77874bd79="Carbon dioxide"]CO2[/acronym:c77874bd79].. at lights out it will consume [acronym:c77874bd79="Oxygen"]O2[/acronym:c77874bd79] but it should be in reverse photoperiod from the tank normaly (this wont be possible with daylight unless you are a 3rd shift person.. [acronym:c77874bd79="Laughing out loud"]LOL[/acronym:c77874bd79]) When the [acronym:c77874bd79="Algal Turf Scrubber"]ATS[/acronym:c77874bd79] is running with light it will keep [acronym:c77874bd79="Oxygen"]O2[/acronym:c77874bd79] past the saturation point in most cases..

A year? the [acronym:c77874bd79="Algal Turf Scrubber"]ATS[/acronym:c77874bd79] will not start up untill its under a bio-load.. so pumping water though it a year will likey just cost you a lot of energy.. maybe running it a while to get things stable.. like a few weeks or a month would be helpfull..

As far as design goes you might want to consider making the base a square.. it will make your life much easier in taking advantage of all the surfase area possible and being able to keep the height down (thus not needed as think a viewing panel (glass or acrylic) and still holding back the water)

I have no clue what your temperature is like there off of Portugal.. whats the average high and low temperature over there?

Ardeus · 10-10-2005, 05:33 PM

I have 2 possible locations and it's going to depend on the costs, revenues and support I can have in each place. As I said, I'm just at the beginning and I'm not sure I will find all the ressources I need. But I'm extremely persistent

One place is here In Madeira and the average temperatures here varie between 18 and 23.

If in the south of Portugal, the average temperatures will vary between 8 and 30.

About the algae... I had the idea that every plant will "breath" like any other organism taking [acronym:565da6d02f="Oxygen"]O2[/acronym:565da6d02f] and releasing [acronym:565da6d02f="Carbon dioxide"]CO2[/acronym:565da6d02f] (burning sugar), while at the same time during daytime, would be taking [acronym:565da6d02f="Carbon dioxide"]CO2[/acronym:565da6d02f] and releasing [acronym:565da6d02f="Oxygen"]O2[/acronym:565da6d02f] through photosynthesis. Do algae work differently?

http://www.biology-online.org/biolog.../about200.html

My idea of spending an year in testing was mainly to see how the temperature control would work through all the seasons and make the necessary adjustments.

greenmaji · 10-11-2005, 02:33 AM

What kind of livestock were you considering?

Ardeus · 10-11-2005, 04:17 PM

African cichlids, most likely a malawi community. I'm not interested in large fish or in having a food chain other than the fry that don't make it to adults.

But I'm open to suggestions.

greenmaji · 10-12-2005, 03:49 PM

what were your plans on lighting the tank? solar tube lighting maybe?

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10-08-2005, 01:56 AM	#11
Ardeus Aquarium Advice Apprentice Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Madeira Island - Portugal Posts: 34	Lighting suplementing? It needs more light beyond direct sunlight? Meanwhile I'm going to find more info about [acronym:888e3a0267="Algal Turf Scrubber"]ATS[/acronym:888e3a0267]. Thanks.

10-08-2005, 03:49 AM	#12
greenmaji Aquarium Advice Addict Join Date: May 2005 Location: Central Kentucky Posts: 5,937	I personaly think my [acronym:551a08a090="Algal Turf Scrubber"]ATS[/acronym:551a08a090] thread has more detailed information about [acronym:551a08a090="Algal Turf Scrubber"]ATS[/acronym:551a08a090] then any source Ive found.. I have read the book Dynamic Aquaria the introduction of [acronym:551a08a090="Algal Turf Scrubber"]ATS[/acronym:551a08a090] usage.. Ive asked questions to an aquarist that is currently running an indoor [acronym:551a08a090="Algal Turf Scrubber"]ATS[/acronym:551a08a090] system on his 1850 gallon (roughly 7,000 liter) home aquarium.. an outdoor [acronym:551a08a090="Algal Turf Scrubber"]ATS[/acronym:551a08a090] for a 1,500,000 liter system would need to be roughly 430 square meters of surfase area, thats quite some roof space.. (Im making rough estamates from memory, my thread will have the information needed to build a system) The lighting requirements would be the hardest to estamate because of the natural sunlight being in the equasion.. it would need much less artifical light because of the natural sunlight (no area has 100% sunlight exposure each day) http://www.aquariumadvice.com/viewtopic.php?t=56247 [acronym:551a08a090="Hope this helps (or) Happy to help"]HTH[/acronym:551a08a090]

10-09-2005, 12:03 AM	#13
Ardeus Aquarium Advice Apprentice Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Madeira Island - Portugal Posts: 34	I've been reading the thread and trying to adapt a few things to my original idea. Since I've around 800 sq meters of roof around the tank I guess I can use simple direct sun light. The water will circle in open air on the roof with 5 cm height. The roof will be covered with wavy removable plastic mesh pads to give support for the algae to grow. The ondulating pattern not only will enlarge the surface available for the algae but will also create waves, although this must be tried out first. Since I'm talking about a malawi community here, I believe there's a possibility the fish would be interested in cleaning at least some of the pads for me. That way I would take a few pads every other day, put them in the tank for a few days and bring them back to the roof. I don't think it would be a good idea to let the fish go to the roof once a week, lol. The open air thing worries me cause it can work as an uncontrolled heater during summer and a freezer in the winter. Maybe a solution would be to have the roof mesh pads in white plastic during summer and in a black material that better captures heat during winter. I must keep both initial and maintenance costs to a minimum to have any chance of doing this cause the income from this thing will be small.

10-09-2005, 12:38 AM	#14
Skyrmir Aquarium Advice FINatic Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Fort Lauderdale, FL Posts: 510 Images: 9	I would have to guess if this is going to be above ground a major cost is going to be the tank walls themselves. They are going to need to be re-enforced concrete to be able to hold much depth, more depth thicker concrete. Also if your putting it above ground I would assume it's so you can view the fish from the sides. That's going to require careful design in the glass. I've seen it done with 3 sheets of inch thick plexiglass, but that was for a polar bear exhibit, so maybe it didn't need that much thickness just for the water. http://www.fnzas.org.nz/articles/tec...lassthickness/ That link is a bit complex on the math side, but it will let you figure out where to plug in your own numbers and figure out what thickness glass you need for the dimensions you want to get. It'll take some digging to find the calculations for plexiglass to compare with. As for trying to keep with the roof water flow system, you might be able to rig up a holding tank before and after the roof flow for maintaining temperature. Heat the water a bit before letting it flow in the winter, and cooling for the water in the summer. Otherwise even the day/night cycle is going to create some eratic temperature swings. It would require a bit of creative plumbing, but it would most likely be easier to change the temperature on a small volume of water constantly, than to try and maintain the temperature constantly throughout the system. Even if not a holding tank, simply looping the pipes around or inside heaters/coolers to change the temperature as it flowed might work. Either way it will end up being energy intensive, but then locking the temperature for any water mass that size is going to take a lot of energy. Might want to find out how much Lake Malawi changes temperatures during the different seasons to know how big a swing can be tolerated.

10-09-2005, 01:48 AM	#15
Ardeus Aquarium Advice Apprentice Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Madeira Island - Portugal Posts: 34	The tank at the end of the roof flow looks like a good idea. And I also remembered that controlling the amount of water being pumped to the roof may also control the temperature. With lower speeds at night (is a full stop possible?), not only the tank remains more termically isolated but also will prevent large amounts of [acronym:58c9e76df3="Carbon dioxide"]CO2[/acronym:58c9e76df3] coming from the algae on the roof to enter the tank. I'm planning on having the tank running without fish for an year to make adjustments. I was reading the article on glass thickness. Lot's of talking about the way different glasses crack. I recently posted a thread about "large scale catastrophe". I regret that title... you can imagine the images that came to my mind while reading that article. But the calculations are extremely usefull at this stage so I can have an idea of the costs. I'm planning on having just two larger windows and not that large really, considering the tank is 30m x 20m x 2.5m. Around 7 meters long by 2 meters high. All the others will be much smaller. The wall thickness for a 2.5m tank is within what's normal for exterior house walls around here. Traditionally houses have thick walls (sometimes nearing 1 meter).

10-10-2005, 02:37 AM	#16
greenmaji Aquarium Advice Addict Join Date: May 2005 Location: Central Kentucky Posts: 5,937	Algae does not create [acronym:c77874bd79="Carbon dioxide"]CO2[/acronym:c77874bd79].. at lights out it will consume [acronym:c77874bd79="Oxygen"]O2[/acronym:c77874bd79] but it should be in reverse photoperiod from the tank normaly (this wont be possible with daylight unless you are a 3rd shift person.. [acronym:c77874bd79="Laughing out loud"]LOL[/acronym:c77874bd79]) When the [acronym:c77874bd79="Algal Turf Scrubber"]ATS[/acronym:c77874bd79] is running with light it will keep [acronym:c77874bd79="Oxygen"]O2[/acronym:c77874bd79] past the saturation point in most cases.. A year? the [acronym:c77874bd79="Algal Turf Scrubber"]ATS[/acronym:c77874bd79] will not start up untill its under a bio-load.. so pumping water though it a year will likey just cost you a lot of energy.. maybe running it a while to get things stable.. like a few weeks or a month would be helpfull.. As far as design goes you might want to consider making the base a square.. it will make your life much easier in taking advantage of all the surfase area possible and being able to keep the height down (thus not needed as think a viewing panel (glass or acrylic) and still holding back the water) I have no clue what your temperature is like there off of Portugal.. whats the average high and low temperature over there?

10-10-2005, 05:33 PM	#17
Ardeus Aquarium Advice Apprentice Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Madeira Island - Portugal Posts: 34	I have 2 possible locations and it's going to depend on the costs, revenues and support I can have in each place. As I said, I'm just at the beginning and I'm not sure I will find all the ressources I need. But I'm extremely persistent One place is here In Madeira and the average temperatures here varie between 18 and 23. If in the south of Portugal, the average temperatures will vary between 8 and 30. About the algae... I had the idea that every plant will "breath" like any other organism taking [acronym:565da6d02f="Oxygen"]O2[/acronym:565da6d02f] and releasing [acronym:565da6d02f="Carbon dioxide"]CO2[/acronym:565da6d02f] (burning sugar), while at the same time during daytime, would be taking [acronym:565da6d02f="Carbon dioxide"]CO2[/acronym:565da6d02f] and releasing [acronym:565da6d02f="Oxygen"]O2[/acronym:565da6d02f] through photosynthesis. Do algae work differently? http://www.biology-online.org/biolog.../about200.html My idea of spending an year in testing was mainly to see how the temperature control would work through all the seasons and make the necessary adjustments.

10-11-2005, 02:33 AM	#18
greenmaji Aquarium Advice Addict Join Date: May 2005 Location: Central Kentucky Posts: 5,937	What kind of livestock were you considering?

10-11-2005, 04:17 PM	#19
Ardeus Aquarium Advice Apprentice Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Madeira Island - Portugal Posts: 34	African cichlids, most likely a malawi community. I'm not interested in large fish or in having a food chain other than the fry that don't make it to adults. But I'm open to suggestions.

10-12-2005, 03:49 PM	#20
greenmaji Aquarium Advice Addict Join Date: May 2005 Location: Central Kentucky Posts: 5,937	what were your plans on lighting the tank? solar tube lighting maybe?