1.500.000 litres

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Ardeus

Aquarium Advice Apprentice
Joined
Sep 19, 2005
Messages
36
Location
Madeira Island - Portugal
For now it's just an idea...

How can one handle the filtration, aeration, lighting, temperature, Ph, etc of 1.500.000 litres of freshwater?

I'm trying to calculate building and maintenance costs and to understand the technical difficulties.
 
Look into having a pool built, subtract the cost of pool chemicals, add the cost of fish/food/plants. The majority of the costs are going to depend on who builds pools in your area, and what your local geography is like. It's harder to build pools in some area's because the ground water makes them want to float until they're full of water. Large boulders tend to slow things down too.

Lighting for something that large is usually natural. It'd take a building just to house that much water.

Why such a large size by the way? Looking to build a 1/4 scale New Orleans?
 
The difference to a normal 30m x 20m x 2.5 m pool would be mainly the presence of a few acrilic windows and the fact that it would be above the ground. But what about heat control and filtration? Is it feasible to have the water circulating over the outside buiding's roof and let algae grow massively? And cover the roof with some bacterial friendly substrate so that algae and bacteria can thrive?
 
There might be a few problems with circulating the water over the roof. For one the temperature would be hard to control and in spots could easily reach up near boiling. There's also the problem of weight. Water is about 8lbs per gallon, plus all the piping and containment, plus the weight of the bacteria/algea/mulm buildup. That would require a seriously strong roof to be anywhere near safe. Not what you'd find on a typical house.

A pool heater would most likely do the job better, also as far as nitrifying bacteria goes, plants and surface area are the most useful things, so there wouldn't really be a reason to lift the water like that. Just a big pool filter with lots of surface area.
 
Moskitos make nice fish food, let them come :)

Skymir, you're saying the rocks and gravel in the tank would be enough for the nitrifying bacteria? It would be enough to keep the water with good aeration and circulating, while permanently making water changes from a well?

I thought about using the roof as a large filter that would also help to refill the water with oxygen. And I was thinking about something around 10cms high of water circulating above. But the heating will be a problem, you're right about that too. In the region, air temperature can go as high as 40 deg celcius (above 100F) and around 0 during winter.

I had thought about a piping system distributing the water that returns from filter at different points in the tank to avoid dead areas.
 
The filters are going to be the bacteria hang outs, along with every surface they can attach to. Also the return feeds to the tank are easy places to create aeration. In something that size though, the surface area of the pond is going to create a huge gas exchange as long as the water is moving. For something that size most people use fountains or rock waterfalls for extra aeration.

Just as any tank, the bacteria will have to be built up over time...or a serious investment in Bio-Spira stock hehe.

Are you seriously thinking of building something this size above ground? With the temp swings in your area the only way to keep tropicals would be to house the whole thing indoors. You can only heat so much during the winter, eventually mother nature is gonna win and it will freeze or at least drop far enough to kill tropical fish.
 
Yes, it has to be above ground, cause I have a house around it and can't have underground rooms. But as all the tank walls will be interior (the tank will be surrounded by a house), termic isolation will be easier.

It seems that controlling temperature is one of the most important issues here.

The maximum temperature variation during a single day can be around 20 degrees. But this amount of water won't follow the outside temperature fast, winter or summer.

So what I need to worry about are the average temperatures. During summer, if it gets too high, the tank's roof can be covered with white, letting some diffuse light in.

I'm also trying to figure out an easy and not expensive way to control the sun light it gets as well as isollating the tank's roof termically.

As for heating during the winter, I think that it's possible to have a main system based on solar collectors (the government pays part of their initial cost here) and another extra form of heating, like the pool heating you suggested. This has to be combined with the good termic isolation, specially in the tanks roof.

I was thinking if my initial idea of making the water run all the way through the house's roof couldn't be adapted to help heating in colder days. A way to automate this would be to have the water temperature checked when entering and when exiting the roof. If the water was colder after leaving, the pumps would stop sending water through the roof.

My initial idea was to have the water going through a 50 meter course, 3-5 inches high, around 5 meters wide. This could be used both as filter and heat control. For instance, covering the roof area with a white material during summer and black during winter.
 
I'm also thinking about how to handle deseases. I can't see many alternatives other then trying to prevent them... beyond that, nature just will follow its course. There will be times when hundreds of fish will be wiped out. Can UV's be used in a tank this size?
 
it sounds like you had a ATS idea up there.. there are calulated flows and surfase area for a given volume of water in such cases and systems have been built with oudoor ATS filtration.. so it can be done.. there usually involves some lighting suplementing for outdoor ATS systems, but not nearly the amount of artifical light needed for a indoor ATS.. HTH
 
I personaly think my ATS thread has more detailed information about ATS then any source Ive found.. I have read the book Dynamic Aquaria the introduction of ATS usage.. Ive asked questions to an aquarist that is currently running an indoor ATS system on his 1850 gallon (roughly 7,000 liter) home aquarium..
an outdoor ATS for a 1,500,000 liter system would need to be roughly 430 square meters of surfase area, thats quite some roof space.. (Im making rough estamates from memory, my thread will have the information needed to build a system) The lighting requirements would be the hardest to estamate because of the natural sunlight being in the equasion.. it would need much less artifical light because of the natural sunlight (no area has 100% sunlight exposure each day)
http://www.aquariumadvice.com/viewtopic.php?t=56247
HTH
 
I've been reading the thread and trying to adapt a few things to my original idea.

Since I've around 800 sq meters of roof around the tank I guess I can use simple direct sun light. The water will circle in open air on the roof with 5 cm height. The roof will be covered with wavy removable plastic mesh pads to give support for the algae to grow. The ondulating pattern not only will enlarge the surface available for the algae but will also create waves, although this must be tried out first.

Since I'm talking about a malawi community here, I believe there's a possibility the fish would be interested in cleaning at least some of the pads for me. That way I would take a few pads every other day, put them in the tank for a few days and bring them back to the roof. I don't think it would be a good idea to let the fish go to the roof once a week, lol.

The open air thing worries me cause it can work as an uncontrolled heater during summer and a freezer in the winter. Maybe a solution would be to have the roof mesh pads in white plastic during summer and in a black material that better captures heat during winter.

I must keep both initial and maintenance costs to a minimum to have any chance of doing this cause the income from this thing will be small.
 
I would have to guess if this is going to be above ground a major cost is going to be the tank walls themselves. They are going to need to be re-enforced concrete to be able to hold much depth, more depth thicker concrete. Also if your putting it above ground I would assume it's so you can view the fish from the sides. That's going to require careful design in the glass. I've seen it done with 3 sheets of inch thick plexiglass, but that was for a polar bear exhibit, so maybe it didn't need that much thickness just for the water.

http://www.fnzas.org.nz/articles/technical/glassthickness/

That link is a bit complex on the math side, but it will let you figure out where to plug in your own numbers and figure out what thickness glass you need for the dimensions you want to get. It'll take some digging to find the calculations for plexiglass to compare with.

As for trying to keep with the roof water flow system, you might be able to rig up a holding tank before and after the roof flow for maintaining temperature. Heat the water a bit before letting it flow in the winter, and cooling for the water in the summer. Otherwise even the day/night cycle is going to create some eratic temperature swings. It would require a bit of creative plumbing, but it would most likely be easier to change the temperature on a small volume of water constantly, than to try and maintain the temperature constantly throughout the system. Even if not a holding tank, simply looping the pipes around or inside heaters/coolers to change the temperature as it flowed might work. Either way it will end up being energy intensive, but then locking the temperature for any water mass that size is going to take a lot of energy. Might want to find out how much Lake Malawi changes temperatures during the different seasons to know how big a swing can be tolerated.
 
The tank at the end of the roof flow looks like a good idea. And I also remembered that controlling the amount of water being pumped to the roof may also control the temperature. With lower speeds at night (is a full stop possible?), not only the tank remains more termically isolated but also will prevent large amounts of CO2 coming from the algae on the roof to enter the tank.

I'm planning on having the tank running without fish for an year to make adjustments.

I was reading the article on glass thickness. Lot's of talking about the way different glasses crack. I recently posted a thread about "large scale catastrophe". I regret that title... you can imagine the images that came to my mind while reading that article. But the calculations are extremely usefull at this stage so I can have an idea of the costs.

I'm planning on having just two larger windows and not that large really, considering the tank is 30m x 20m x 2.5m. Around 7 meters long by 2 meters high. All the others will be much smaller.

The wall thickness for a 2.5m tank is within what's normal for exterior house walls around here. Traditionally houses have thick walls (sometimes nearing 1 meter).
 
Algae does not create CO2.. at lights out it will consume O2 but it should be in reverse photoperiod from the tank normaly (this wont be possible with daylight unless you are a 3rd shift person.. LOL) When the ATS is running with light it will keep O2 past the saturation point in most cases..

A year? the ATS will not start up untill its under a bio-load.. so pumping water though it a year will likey just cost you a lot of energy.. maybe running it a while to get things stable.. like a few weeks or a month would be helpfull..

As far as design goes you might want to consider making the base a square.. it will make your life much easier in taking advantage of all the surfase area possible and being able to keep the height down (thus not needed as think a viewing panel (glass or acrylic) and still holding back the water)

I have no clue what your temperature is like there off of Portugal.. whats the average high and low temperature over there?
 
I have 2 possible locations and it's going to depend on the costs, revenues and support I can have in each place. As I said, I'm just at the beginning and I'm not sure I will find all the ressources I need. But I'm extremely persistent :)

One place is here In Madeira and the average temperatures here varie between 18 and 23.

If in the south of Portugal, the average temperatures will vary between 8 and 30.

About the algae... I had the idea that every plant will "breath" like any other organism taking O2 and releasing CO2 (burning sugar), while at the same time during daytime, would be taking CO2 and releasing O2 through photosynthesis. Do algae work differently?

http://www.biology-online.org/biology-forum/about200.html

My idea of spending an year in testing was mainly to see how the temperature control would work through all the seasons and make the necessary adjustments.
 
African cichlids, most likely a malawi community. I'm not interested in large fish or in having a food chain other than the fry that don't make it to adults.

But I'm open to suggestions.
 
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