A few DIY questions

[Angel.Zero]

I am making a 40 gallon acrylic tank, My first question being, how large of a refugium filter will the tank require (if it were fully loaded). I was thinking about making a carbon canister on the return line from the sump to the tank, would this be at all effective in possibly controlling ammonia spikes? What is most commonly used as a bio-filter? Is it absolutly neccisary to use the "upside-down U" in the overflow? and why? I think I will post more questions as these get answered... thanks for the advice everyone!

EDIT: How large of a sump pump do I need?

Sorry for double posting image! but its a "pre-filter that I designed. Let me know what you think of it.

 

[BillyZ]

Firstly, Welcome to Aquarium Advice!

Will this be for a SW or a FW tank?
You might want to pop over to our SW or FW forums to ask some of the questions to decide how you want to filter your tank before you make a lot of design decisions.

if this were a SW tank I would tell you to focus mostly on your substrate and LR for your bio filtration as any form of "media" will end up with more maintenance to keep good chemistry in your tank.

 

[Angel.Zero]

Thanks for the response. It is going to be a fw tank

 

[jsoong]

I assume you are going to drill the tank & have your pre-filter inside?

I would suggest having your biomedia compartment in the sump itself .... You have what looks like a 3x3x12 space for your biomedia - a bit small, and with your design <without a water distribution system>, most of the water will go directly from your intake "teeth" down the side & out the box, missing the biomedia. If you are planning bioballs, you'll need something like 1/2 to 1 gal space, plus some way to distribute water over them .... Personally I would find it ugly to have that much stuff inside the display tank.

The upside down U - is that a Durso standpipe you are thinking of? It is not necessary ..... but highly desirable. Unless your water outlet is big enough that the water can flow down the outlet pipe in a sheet <don't know exact size, but from what I read in the neighbourhood of 12" diameter!>, the outflow box will be LOUD. Without a Durso attachment, the water noise in my overflow drove me nuts. The Durso made a HUGH improvment.

Size of return pump - you want 2-4x water turnover per hour for FW (up to 10x for reef). I add my sump volume to the calculation - unless you have a hugh central sump servicing several tanks. So if your sump is 20 gal, add that to 40 gal of tank makes a flow rate of 120-240 gph. Note that this is actual flow rate - not the max pump flow rate. Moving water uphill & through pipes results in rates much less than advertised. To determine the pump needed, You'll want to first settle on your head height (ie - how high the tank is above your sump), then look through the fine prints on the pump on how much less water it is going to move at that head height, plus allow for 10-20% loss due to tubing resistence.

 

[Angel.Zero]

thanks for all the advice, it was very helpful. The "pre-filter" is ouside the tank, the tank itself is a acrylic diy project. so the "teeth" will be on the back wall of the tank. I also added a "lip" so the water would flow over the biofilter. The pre-filter is 3"widex6"deepx12"long. I am going to check on the gal. capacity of it but I think it's about 1 gal. another thing I am still questioning is if a carbon canister after the sump would be useful in controlling ammonia spikes... ie: fill the canister when cycling the tank, as it is after all the bio-media it would not "starv" the bactiria but would help to minimize ammonia back into the tank. any thoughts?? I also have a new drawing of the whole tank and pre-filter setup if anyone wants to see it

 

[krap101]

im thinking.. you should tilt the bio media thingy, make the holes smaller, and only make the intake on one side of the box? that way, it'll go over all of the media, and by the end the water will all be under, and can drain out.

and if you cutting the "teeth" in the tank, will it effect the durability of the tank?

 

[Angel.Zero]

As far as tank durability is concerned... It shouldn't be effected due to the pre-filter also acting to re-inforce the tank.

 

[krap101]

okay nvm.. thought it over my thingy made no sense :?

 

[jsoong]

Ah, the whole thing looks better now.

2 more comments:

The space you have for your bio-media is between the lower end of your water lip & the shelf, & it looks to be only an inch or 2 deep .... that makes a volume of about 70 cu in max (about 1/4 gal) ..... You might want to make the whole thing deeper (ie taller) - more space for media, plus the water outlet being lower will make less of a splash into the sump = less noise.

Your lip design might be a problem - it will still direct water to just a small part of the media, but if it is fixed - you'll have problem getting the bioballs out for servicing .... not enough space to put your hand under the lip ..... so you'll have to drain & tip the tank over to get at the bioballs ..... or to access the lower compartment -- say you have something stuck in the outlet ....

The classic water distribution system is a removable plate. The plate sits on top of the biomedia (maybe supported by rails?), and snug enough to the sides of the box to collect a layer of water. Holes in the plate direct water evenly over the entire biomedia surface. The plate is not glued in so you can remove it to get at the bioballs, and while you are at it, the biomedia shelf should be removable for easy access to the lower compartment.

 

[jsoong]

One other thing - carbon does not remove ammonia ..... There are ammonia binders (zeolite, etc) but these are not replacement for proper cycling. IMO you should not need ammonia binders if you are cycling properly.

 

[Angel.Zero]

jsoong: thank you for everything, I like the idea about a "removable tray" for the bio-media. And as far as carbon/zeolite canister is concered I was thinking about using it to say... cycle the tank in the first place... because if it didn't do anything until after the pump the bio-media shouldn't be to drastically effected right?? well anyways I was thinking it would be good for say adding new fish to the tank... sorta like a stress reducer! haha. anyway thanks again... all of the advice is helping me to design it better. also I have a new question... is a protien skimmer going to be effective in this set-up?

EDIT: What if I were to take a 1.5" pvc pipe, cut it in half, drill holes in it. think the might distribute the water a little better?

 

[JProx]

a protein skimmer only works in a saltwater environment, and if your still doing a freshwater tank, it will will not help you what so ever. Surface tension is what makes protein skimming possible, more importantly the interaction between the oxygen bubble (being injected) and the surrounding water creates friction between the two. The friction then causes the dissolved organics to stick to the bubbles and ride them to the surface (as any gas is always lighter than water) this process is only possible (in our home aquarium) because of the density of saltwater. Freshwater just is too ‘light’ to have the same effect

adding zeolite will be at best counter productive. when starting a tank you need the cycle to begin and end when it will of its own decision, or when you add new fish to the tank your bio filter must adapt to that change adding things to speed up the process will very often lead to a cycle that last much longer than it would normally or simply and utterly crash. by adding zeolite to your canister you will actually be damaging your bio filter by not allowing it to naturally adapt and when the zeolite becomes exhausted the bio filter will have to adapt twice as fast or you will lose fish from ammonia poisoning. circumventing the normal cycle or mini - cycle when adding new fish by zeolite is a dangerous thing to do and you should avoid it when you can.imho zeolite should only be used in a few select situations.
1) when they are has been a power outage for more than 6hours,where massive bacteria die off has occurred, using zeolite here will save the fish by keeping ammonia lvls down till the bio filters have re adapted over the course of a few days/weeks.
2) using a copper based or mercin based medicine on a tank (usually salt tank related here) where to save your fish from an infection you have to kill the bacteria colonies. similar to the first rule though.
3) overhauling an existing tank, where you have to disturb the gravel bed, bacterial filter media etc all at once (instead of pacing it out over a few week period)

just my 2 cents though.

 

[Angel.Zero]

ok

here is the updated pre-filter design... I was thinking about making a couple different removable plates with different paterns to change the flow.

 

[jsoong]

I like this design - you need to add a screen or something over your outlet pipe or your bioballs will fall through...

You can experiment with different distribution plates .... but others had done that! The best pattern is simply a grid of hole (1/8 " or so) spaced an inch or so apart. You just have to make sure you have enough holes to handle the expected flow rate (plus a healthy margin --- as the holes will get plugged up!).

There is also a calculation for minimum outlet pipe size and number of slots you need (between the tank & the prefilter) to handle a certain pump flow. I no longer have the link ot the calculator, but since I am paranoid, I built everything double the minimum size. <For my 100 gal system, the number is 12 inches of slots (1/4" wide spaced 1/4" apart. Outlet pipe size was 3/4" although for an effective durso noise reduction, you need 1.5" so I went with that.>

 

[Angel.Zero]

thanks again jsoong, you have been a tremendous help through this entire design process. I already knew about the screen but wasn't worth adding it to the 3d model. well anyways thanks again!

 

[Angel.Zero]

I have another question, would a protien skimmer be effective in a brackish aquarium?

 

[JProx]

i had a good feeling that question would be asked...
the answer is simple .. marginally effective. in a brackish tank it will collect some organic matter, but i wouldn't believe it to be much if anything..

 

[Angel.Zero]

well then I have this to ask... would it be pointless to add one to a sump filter of a brackish tank? and is the refugum (sp?) at all effective at filtration? also I have read that the "fluidized bed" filters are not very effective due to low oxygen, is this true? other then the biological filter what is recomended for a 45g tank?

 

[jsoong]

I don't know much about skimmers. FAIK not worth it in FW or brackish.

Refugium - Primarily a SW thing, but I've read of a couple designs for FW. Basically you want a fuge to remove nitrates. You could fill the fuge with plants or (much easier) algae. The most promising design (IMO) is one where water flows down a stack of plates with green hair algae. Of course you would need light to keep your algae/plants growing. At this point, the whole FW fuge thing is experimental, and effectiveness not proven. Personally, I find the whole thing too much work to be worthwhile. I simply have a sponge for the big particulates & wet/dry for the nitrogenous waste & oxygenation. PWC looks after everything else. My plants are in the display tank & they keep my nitrates at zero <I actually have to dose KNO3 to keep up a low level of NO3 for the plants.>

 

[JProx]

if i was running a brackish tank, i would skip the protein skimmer altogether, i have never ran a brackish tank though, but have thought about it a few times and read a few books on the subject and not one of hte books have streesed the need for one in a tank, one books said it would be advisible with a large bio load was present but never that it was a mandorty addition.

low oxygen will make all filters less effective, not just a bed filter. if you keep the water turning over enough i doubt you will ever run into that problem

fuges can be helpful in the freshwater tank, however most people find its use there to be a complete waste. why bother stocking the fuge full of plants that you will never see, when you can put them in your display tank? some people think algea can be used instead but that idea is really closely related to 'algae scrubbers' or ATS systems and is alot more complex and costly.