Go Back   Aquarium Advice - Aquarium Forum Community > General Aquarium Forums > DIY Projects
Click Here to Login

Join Aquarium Advice Today
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Please support our sponsors and let them know you heard about them on AquariumAdvice.com
 
Old 07-24-2005, 08:26 PM   #111
Aquarium Advice Freak
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Cleveland ohio
Posts: 361
Send a message via ICQ to JProx Send a message via AIM to JProx
This morning I finally sat down with a pencil, a pad of paper and a calculator to do some math in regards to my rotating drum design. I wish I could just ask the 2 questions without going through the trouble of showing my math, and actually listing my thoughts, but hopefully people can understand my questions better if I do so. My original idea was to find PVC end caps at 6in diameter, and get either 8in or 12 in PVC pipe and use that as the actual drum, the pipe would be modified to allow the passage of air and water through the middle. The math I did is as follows.

Formula for circumference – 2π x R2
Formula for area of the lateral side of a cylinder - 2π x R x H
a) R = 3in , h = 8 in
Answer for Area of lateral side – 150.796 sq in or 1.0472 sq ft. [.09729 sq m]
b) R = 3in, h = 12in
Answer for area of lateral side – 226.1945 sq in or 1.571 sq ft. [0.14595 sq m]

If the lighting rule is:
10.7639 sq ft [equal to 1 sq metter] = 1000watts Then, 5.38195 sq ft = 500watts,
2.69097 sq ft = 250watts, 1.34548 sq ft = 125watts

So if I was to build the drum with D – 6in and H – 12 I would need about 125watts of light, and would it provide enough surface area for an effective scrubber? Is there a proportion to sq ft and effectiveness? I know the more you provide the better, but is there a general rule, that surface area of xx sq ft is suitable for a xx gallon tank ? I don’t have my book yet, and would like to know if I should continue banging the rotating drum (ha! Pun) or just move on to a tray system. Of course I can always just double up on wheels, and have 3.142 sq ft [0.2919 sq m] but then I would need 2 dump buckets for effective wave actions, if I just went with one dump, the first wheel would take the brunt of the force and the 2nd wheel would just get the leftovers if any, and of course if I doubled up, a much more complex system would be a necessary. Ashdavid or green I would love to get some input from you on surface area verses effectiveness and if any proportions exist and your thoughts. And I know ash you dislike the drum design, but if I used a rectangle tray with the same dimensions (L – 12 , W – 8 H - 1) the surface would be about 224 sq in, close to the drum, but actually taking up more space, to gain near equal area. Which is my motivating factor, making my ATS as small and contained as possible
__________________

__________________
JProx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-25-2005, 01:23 AM   #112
Aquarium Advice Addict
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Central Kentucky
Posts: 6,015
Send a message via AIM to greenmaji
I am taking in consideration that your drum design is more of an experiment in removing nutrients in your freshwater tank and you will be using the tray design for your reef project in the future (Im not sure if ashdavid has noticed this point but I think its needed to reduce confusion).
ashdavid started off the discussion by saying use half the surface area of the tank your going to be filtering as a general guide to sizing the scrubber surface area, Ive read one square inch per gallon as a general rule as well. I think this is for standard tanks and if you have a rather tall tank I would make it bigger then this. you also have the up to 50% growth loss.. I cant remember how big your FW tank is so I would venture to guess just make the surface area the same as the tank for the drum to make up for the loss in algae growth (this should be possible) Hope this helps..
And as far as the HPS goes.. I would really not like putting 30,000 lumens over the big scrubber (thats nearly 500watts of MH light) I like over kill but thats just plan ridiculous, and would likely make me shrink the size of the scrubber.
If you know how to shop for the components and put a HPS system together that is smaller then 250watts then Im all ears. :P
__________________

__________________
greenmaji is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-26-2005, 03:55 AM   #113
Aquarium Advice Regular
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Japan
Posts: 73
Ok Jprox , I know you like the drum system and to be perfectly honest with you I have never tried it, BUT if you do the math on it the drum system will never match the tray system if the surface areas were the same. This will be a very simple explanation.
Lets say you the same surface area of screen on a drum type and a tray type.
#1: As the drum rotates there will be algae in the dark , and as you may already know the longer algae is in light the better it grows, so realisticaly you are reducing the photo period by this design. With the tray system it is always in the light taking full effect of the light contiunously.
#2: As Dr Adey says in his book the wave motion is very important which the drum type in theory will not have.
#3: You cannot get away with less light and expect the same results, but you already know that.

The only draw back is that the ATS takes up a bit of room.
Btw I am still in the process of getting the pics of my screens posted.Sorry for the wait.
__________________
1850g ATS
ashdavid is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-27-2005, 08:59 PM   #114
Aquarium Advice Regular
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Japan
Posts: 73
Here is a pic of one of my screens that the fram is made out of PVC pipe , http://aquaticphotos.com/details.php...89&mode=search, Sorry it is is a little hard to see.
__________________
1850g ATS
ashdavid is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-27-2005, 10:18 PM   #115
Aquarium Advice Freak
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Cleveland ohio
Posts: 361
Send a message via ICQ to JProx Send a message via AIM to JProx
its a good pic, what material did you use for the panel though fiberglass mesh ?
__________________
JProx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-27-2005, 11:44 PM   #116
Aquarium Advice Regular
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Japan
Posts: 73
I used 2mm by 2mm extra thick fly sreen mesh.
__________________
1850g ATS
ashdavid is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-04-2005, 03:58 AM   #117
Aquarium Advice Addict
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Central Kentucky
Posts: 6,015
Send a message via AIM to greenmaji
I just picked up the book from the library today.. I havent cracked it yet but I might be busy for a while reading it.. Ill check back soon.. :P
__________________
greenmaji is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2005, 05:30 AM   #118
Aquarium Advice Addict
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Central Kentucky
Posts: 6,015
Send a message via AIM to greenmaji
After reading a great deal of the book at this point.. It seems it does have alot more to do with aquaria then I was expecting (limiting the size of these ecosystems is nessisary in comparing them to the ones done in the book..) well there is a 70 gallon blackwater tank that is alot more feasible.. it also seems there is a reference work that could be inspected for more information on ATS.. the book is called Utilizing Cultured Algal Turfs (Adey, W. and Hackney, J 1989).. well.. this book has me thinking about ecosystems and ecology now.. I am wondering if I can make the food chain top heavy or ignore all of this information and focus on the scrubber..
ashdavid.. do you have a "sediment trap" and what did you not like about the "perpetual motion" designed scrubber?
The algae types seem to be the same with one exception between FW and SW.. so a turf is suppose to be the outcome. Im really curious what algae is on your screen now and if its in layers like the book shows.. TIA
__________________
greenmaji is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2005, 09:54 PM   #119
Aquarium Advice Regular
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Japan
Posts: 73
The "perpetual motion" Ats would be good too, but don't scale up very well, so b/c of the size of the ATS I am dealing with I chose the my the tray design. And yes you can ognore a lot of the info and make your tank top heavy in regards to the food chain, all you have to do is keep adding food for those fish and theoretically have the ATS srcub the excess nutrients out for you. I do have a sediment trap, but it dose not work very good, so b/c I am not concerned with plankton I use normal filter wool for mechanical filtration. And to answer your last question, yes the algae is in layers , but I have a lot of trouble controling algae eating larvae and sometimes I have difficulties controling macro algae, it all seems to happen in cycles.
__________________
1850g ATS
ashdavid is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-08-2005, 04:18 AM   #120
Aquarium Advice Addict
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Central Kentucky
Posts: 6,015
Send a message via AIM to greenmaji
There is a reference in the book about examples of sediment traps in the book but I have lost my place.. Could either of you ashdavid or JProx help me find it again..
the perpetual motion design does seem a little on the difficult side for you (because of size).. but It would be a challenge to figure out out to design it to rock with the correct amount of counterweight and placement of the axis to get the correct number of intervals per min.. I would like to work on a sediment trap as well, do you think that FW clams or mussels would consume the sediment? That might help as well :P

btw. the book was refiring to a larva that could cause problems in FW and anthropoids in SW and to scrape the scrubber walls and other surfaces periodically to help control there population.. HTH
also according to the book macro algaes shouldnt be a problem unless the scrubber isnt scraped for too long.. how long is it taking for maco's to start growing after a scraping?
I also noticed that there was no reference to using 1X1mm screen that I could see for SW.. there was 2X2mm screen and 2X4mm polyuratane screen materials refenced..
__________________

__________________
greenmaji is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
29 gallon, project, tan

Please support our sponsors and let them know you heard about them on AquariumAdvice.com

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Algae turf scrubber. partypalooza5 DIY Projects 4 02-09-2010 03:05 PM
A few of my smaller planted tanks. Zagz Show Off/Photography 7 05-28-2008 11:33 PM
why are fish MORE shy in smaller tanks? Bubble_B0y Freshwater & Brackish - General Discussion 3 05-07-2006 06:56 AM
Fish Growth in smaller tanks reeftankman Saltwater Reef Aquaria 11 10-29-2005 07:01 PM
Question about smaller tanks William Saltwater Reef Aquaria 1 09-23-2004 12:52 PM







» Photo Contest Winners








Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 02:36 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.