Go Back   Aquarium Advice - Aquarium Forum Community > General Aquarium Forums > DIY Projects
Click Here to Login

Join Aquarium Advice Today
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Please support our sponsors and let them know you heard about them on AquariumAdvice.com
 
Old 07-07-2005, 04:05 AM   #31
Aquarium Advice Regular
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Japan
Posts: 73
Btw the design on that rotating filter uses bio media , which is not recomended by Dr Adey, the biological filter will hinder the results of the ATS.
__________________

__________________
1850g ATS
ashdavid is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-07-2005, 04:21 AM   #32
Aquarium Advice Freak
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Cleveland ohio
Posts: 361
Send a message via ICQ to JProx Send a message via AIM to JProx
[quote="ashdavid"]
Quote:
Originally Posted by JProx


i really don't think building a rotating design would be much more difficult than the traditional tray maybe a little more expensive, but not harder. the biggest hurdle is finding a premade round cyclinder in the right size, and if thats impossible (which it probably is) you can always cut out the peices from an acrylic sheet. that actual unit is used in city aquariums, so it must work pretty darn well, it might be worth emulating.
It is not the fact that a rotating drum would be hard or easy to build, the fact is that it is not as efficient as the dump bucket or wave types. Dr Adey has stated that when running water and no wave action was implemented, the algae production rate droped by 50%.Wave action is deffinately a must when designing your ATS. Also about the light thing, the fact is more light means more algae production.

well the way that unit is desinged, rushing water is piped in above the wheel, and gravity pulls it down, spinning the drum, also the water is held in the wheel chamber for some time before running through the rest of the filter, i have never seen one of these units in real life, but based on the pictures i am thinking the water is moving around the wheel in a rather violent pattern. weather or not the water is moving in a wave pattern enough to stimulate growth can be argued, but i am not quite ready to throw in the towel on this design. http://www.aquaticengineers.com/images/newport16.JPG

and i have done some research on ATS systems in the past, however when you say 1000watts of lighting will be needed for an efficient system, you are going to scare people away. to the average reef keeper, 1000watts is enough to keep a 350 gallon reef tank (another broad generalization, i know) in good shape. i am well aware of the more light arguement, but there has to be a figure or a ratio that can plunked in during the design thats the mean wattage of light for a xx sq ft system.

i would love to know the in's and outs Dr. Adey's experiments when he was getting 4g of nitrogen absorbion daily. i wonder if the experiment is even 'simple' enough to try to replicate, at home. i am just debating if 4g is even obtainable in a home environment with DIY ats unit.
__________________

__________________
JProx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-07-2005, 05:58 AM   #33
Aquarium Advice Addict
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Central Kentucky
Posts: 6,015
Send a message via AIM to greenmaji
ashdavid.....You said dump bucket or wave emulating design.. Im not sure if Ive seen a wave emulating (besides the dump bucket) design.. how would that look/work out?
__________________
greenmaji is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-07-2005, 06:06 AM   #34
Aquarium Advice Addict
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Central Kentucky
Posts: 6,015
Send a message via AIM to greenmaji
ashdavid.....btw..how much are you feeding a day and how many square meters are in your system (1850gallons) to get a general idea of what all that light is working on..
And a side note could you list the fish you have in your tank?
I think the lighting figures would be less "scary" if how much work your ATS is having to do was more clear to the readers here.. Ive read some of your posts over at aquaria central so I have a better idea already..ie Im not scared at all..ROFL! that and ODNO is cheap to build (expecialy 2X)! LOL
__________________
greenmaji is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-07-2005, 06:22 AM   #35
Aquarium Advice Addict
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Central Kentucky
Posts: 6,015
Send a message via AIM to greenmaji
JProx... I dont really think you should give up on the wheel design just yet.. :P Im sure you were not going to go through the trouble of adding bio-media under it anyway. I thought of several ways of building it, it doesnt seem to me to be a extremely tough design to emulate, I would just think it would be a little more difficult to harvest/clean out the algae then a tray design.. I have looked at a couple of different tray designs.. ones with angled baffles of some sort.. maybe thats the wave emulation design.. and ones with dump buckets.. Im wondering if the angled baffle design would do as well as the dump bucket design? ashdavid.. I think I just managed to ask another question in an answer your input on the baffles vs. dumpbuckets would be apprecieated though..
__________________
greenmaji is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-07-2005, 07:21 AM   #36
Aquarium Advice Addict
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Central Kentucky
Posts: 6,015
Send a message via AIM to greenmaji
ashdavid.... another question, what kind of algae exactly is it your growing on your scrubber in FW? is it actually turf algae? or is it some kind of hair algae?
__________________
greenmaji is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-07-2005, 09:25 AM   #37
Aquarium Advice Regular
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Japan
Posts: 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by JProx
well the way that unit is desinged, rushing water is piped in above the wheel, and gravity pulls it down, spinning the drum, also the water is held in the wheel chamber for some time before running through the rest of the filter, i have never seen one of these units in real life, but based on the pictures i am thinking the water is moving around the wheel in a rather violent pattern. weather or not the water is moving in a wave pattern enough to stimulate growth can be argued, but i am not quite ready to throw in the towel on this design. http://www.aquaticengineers.com/images/newport16.JPG

and i have done some research on ATS systems in the past, however when you say 1000watts of lighting will be needed for an efficient system, you are going to scare people away. to the average reef keeper, 1000watts is enough to keep a 350 gallon reef tank (another broad generalization, i know) in good shape. i am well aware of the more light arguement, but there has to be a figure or a ratio that can plunked in during the design thats the mean wattage of light for a xx sq ft system.

i would love to know the in's and outs Dr. Adey's experiments when he was getting 4g of nitrogen absorbion daily. i wonder if the experiment is even 'simple' enough to try to replicate, at home. i am just debating if 4g is even obtainable in a home environment with DIY ats unit.
If the water motion is too strong you can have problems with efficiency, what you are aiming for is both sides of the algae stand exposed to the light, It almost has to be a back and forth swaying motion.
And I have to say again , the light issue is a fact of life, no matter what you do and you want a scrubber to filter your tank ,light is absolutely essential. You could compare it to a normal bio filter and ask the question can I get away with only using 5g of media for a 500g tank, you know it is going to filter some of the ammonia ect, but it is not going to do a complete job. I a sorry to say there are no short cuts and that is a fact. But you also have to put things in perspective, Dr Adey used an ATS on a 130g with 300w of light, this scrubber had a surface area of 0.18m sq and if you do the math it works out to be 1650w or there abouts of watts per sq/m(this was an experimental tank, hence the great amout of light). That is a lot of light and I am only suggesting what he used on his his other tanks which is about 1000w per/sq/m. Eg an ATS with a surface area of 1 sq ft(12"*12") would only need 100w of light for it to be effective.
As for your question about, would you be able to get 4g of N out a day, I will say yes if you follow Dr Adeys advise, not only that if you have the lights on the ATS on for 18hrs a day, as recomended you will be able to much more than that. Like I said before these are consevative figures.
Quote:
Originally Posted by greenmagi
ashdavid.....btw..how much are you feeding a day and how many square meters are in your system (1850gallons) to get a general idea of what all that light is working on..
And a side note could you list the fish you have in your tank?
I think the lighting figures would be less "scary" if how much work your ATS is having to do was more clear to the readers here.. Ive read some of your posts over at aquaria central so I have a better idea already..ie Im not scared at all..ROFL! that and ODNO is cheap to build (expecialy 2X)! LOL.
I have about 2.4 sq/m of ATS, this about 916w per/sq/m, but my tank has a lot of water volume and is stable. My advise is that you go a minimun of 150w for the scrubber and make the surface area accordingly, but an ideal ATS would a little bigger b/c of the small water volume, I would say about 200w to 250w which would give an ATS surface area of 2ft or 2. 1/2 ft for the 250w ATS. I is up to you but you could up the light if that would make you feel better. As for the fish in my tank I have about 30 10" to 15" cichlids, and about 40 5" to 10" fish( balas, tinfoil barbs, clown loaches ect) mostly around the 10" mark. I don't know what you mean by the angled baffles , please explain.

This is the dump bucket from a side veiw the top of the bucket is much longer than the bottom so when it fills with water it tips over because it gets top heavy. also you have to put some thing behind the top back part of the bucket so that when it fills with water it does not go backwards. I will try to get some pics of this.

top lenght 160mm
-------------------------------
-----------------------------
---------------------------
-------------------------
-----------------------
----------+---------- height 140mm
--------------------
------------------
----------------
--------------
-------------
bottom lenght 85mm

This is the dump bucket that I use, it has a width of 1m and I use two buckets. Each bucket holds close to 5 g of water tiping about 6 times a min. The cross in the midle has to be exactly in the middle, equal distances from top to bottom and side to side, so what you could do is scale yours down to fit your tank. As for other wave devises there plenty out there, eg "carlson surg devise", but i believe that the dump bucket best emulates the wave motion of the sea.
__________________
1850g ATS
ashdavid is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-07-2005, 01:13 PM   #38
Aquarium Advice Freak
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Cleveland ohio
Posts: 361
Send a message via ICQ to JProx Send a message via AIM to JProx
thank you ashdavid, i starting to feel better now about a DIY Ats unit. thanks again for coddling me for the past few days. angled baffles though - same idea in a sump where baffles are added to slow down water movement {with the idea of giving the water more time to mix with mechanical / chemical filtration) or help remove oxygen bubbles, expect these ones are at an angle (about 30-10 degrees)
and have something that would allow the algea to adhere too easily with the idea of maximizing contact time with the water, and to slow the water's movement through scrubber unit.

green - i don't think harvesting would be really that difficult. the entire wheel assembly should come out of the unit, where its scraped of thick growth and replaced back in the unit.
__________________
JProx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-07-2005, 03:54 PM   #39
Aquarium Advice Addict
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Central Kentucky
Posts: 6,015
Send a message via AIM to greenmaji
ashdavid...
With the angled baffle design the water would come in one side of the ATS then it would travel over multiple angled pieces of acrylic ---> / / / / / / / ---> then out the other side causing the water to make a wave pattern.. it sounds like it might be turbulent by comparison to the dumpbucket design... and I think screens could be added to the sides of the angled baffles that would be facing water flow... but that wouldnt be contusive to the wave pattern you explained unless there were little screens floated between the the baffles after the first one.. ----> /f/f/f/f/f/f --->

while Im at it what materials did you use for your ATS.. what kind of screen did you use? and how did you make it (what is the frame of your screens made out of) or is the screen material only attached to a frame on the sides? And what materia did you use to make the frame?

TY for your dumpbucket design
now all I have to do is resize it.. would you think it would need to be smaller in all dimensions or just resize it to fit the length of the screens in my application of the design?

Im still curious as to the species of algae your growing considering your running FW and I wish to run FW ATS as well.. I would guess the type of algae would depend on bio-load and cycle of the ATS/system... but I was wondering what the end result would be..

JProx...
Point taken with the cleaning of the wheel design.. but it seems like you would have to shut the pump down for a few to do that.. I dont think that would be needed for the tray design but it seems like a minor issue...
As I said before I wouldnt give up on it it just seems like the try design with dumpbucket just might be alot more efficient as far as growth of the turf is considered..
__________________
greenmaji is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-07-2005, 10:14 PM   #40
Aquarium Advice Regular
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Japan
Posts: 73
I am not a fan of the baffle design, I have seen it but after studying the dump bucket and why it should be used, I tend to want to recomend the D bucket.

Greenmagi, here is an example of Dr Adeys african tank, This was designed to see how it would handle bio load. It is a 70g tank and has an ATS with asuface area of 0.085m sq, ATS lights are 148w VHO lamps. This system had at the time of printing about 40" of cichlids and 8" of catfish. It also had plants to take up some of the nutrients. This system was run at about 0.5 no3 . So I would recomend after having a scrubber myself, using an ATS with about 200w to 250w of light to compensate for the plants, but I think that will bring nutrients right down , probably below 0.1 No3.
As for what types of algae, I can tell you the exact types ( I would need a micro scope) But blue greens seem to be most prevelant, sometimes some macro algae comes on to the screens, but is quickly taken off and the micro algae takes over, I have seens reds in there, as well as diatoms. I use a 2mm by 2mm mesh screen with a PVC pipe structure filled with sand to weight it down as the frame. I would say scale down the bucket a little b/c that bucket is quite big. Also with a SW ATS the screen would be better to use 1mm by 1mm, I tried this screen but the FW dose not seem to anchor itself well to it and keeps pealing off.
__________________

__________________
1850g ATS
ashdavid is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
29 gallon, project, tan

Please support our sponsors and let them know you heard about them on AquariumAdvice.com

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Algae turf scrubber. partypalooza5 DIY Projects 4 02-09-2010 03:05 PM
A few of my smaller planted tanks. Zagz Show Off/Photography 7 05-28-2008 11:33 PM
why are fish MORE shy in smaller tanks? Bubble_B0y Freshwater & Brackish - General Discussion 3 05-07-2006 06:56 AM
Fish Growth in smaller tanks reeftankman Saltwater Reef Aquaria 11 10-29-2005 07:01 PM
Question about smaller tanks William Saltwater Reef Aquaria 1 09-23-2004 12:52 PM







» Photo Contest Winners








Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 02:44 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.