greenmaji
Aquarium Advice Addict
Im more then patient for good information! 
ATS (algal turf scrubber) project smaller tanks 75 and 29gal
- Thread starter greenmaji
- Start date
The friendliest place on the web for anyone with an interest in aquariums or fish keeping!
If you have answers, please help by responding to the unanswered posts.
If you have answers, please help by responding to the unanswered posts.
JProx
Aquarium Advice Freak
well that goes with out saying though, which is why i didn't say anything before, ha!
i hope to visit japan one day, always been interested in their culture, and i have already missed one chance to go, which makes me want to go more.
i hope to visit japan one day, always been interested in their culture, and i have already missed one chance to go, which makes me want to go more.
greenmaji
Aquarium Advice Addict
ashdavid... I am thinking that I could do a "fishless cycle" sort of thing with ATS.. Like feeding the tank before I put fish in it once I get this thing built.. Im almost absolutly positive this will work to get the ATS started growing some algae but Im just wanting a second oppinion on this detail.. Thanks in Advance.. 
JProx
Aquarium Advice Freak
in my inexperienced ATS opinion it would temporarily work and you would need to re-stock the bio-matter, or give just enough to get the algea growing but not actually flourish so when the time came to stock the tank, you would have to severely stagger the addition of new fish.
here's my logic, using a bacteria filter method the typical spikes will occur during days 8-10 and your amm. lvls should spike somewhere around 6-10ppm, during day 28-32 nitrites should spike between 22-26ppm and around day 38 or so, nitrates should spike around 35-40ppm. since an ATS system has the ability to uptake ammonia directly there would be a good chance at day 8-10 it would exhaust the surplus of ammonia and once thats gone, nothing else should be present in any usable quantity then die back would occur. maybe my logic is a little 'fast' and ammonia would be generated at a slower rate by the rotting shrimp, but if that was the case the ATS should still be severally limited in it's production, since it wouldn't have a large surplus.
i would suggest seeding the ATS in an existing tank, so just using comets for the cycle. however if i am wrong, i would love ashdavid to go into detail as too how because i was too thinking of doing the fishless cycle, but then came up the above logic.
here's my logic, using a bacteria filter method the typical spikes will occur during days 8-10 and your amm. lvls should spike somewhere around 6-10ppm, during day 28-32 nitrites should spike between 22-26ppm and around day 38 or so, nitrates should spike around 35-40ppm. since an ATS system has the ability to uptake ammonia directly there would be a good chance at day 8-10 it would exhaust the surplus of ammonia and once thats gone, nothing else should be present in any usable quantity then die back would occur. maybe my logic is a little 'fast' and ammonia would be generated at a slower rate by the rotting shrimp, but if that was the case the ATS should still be severally limited in it's production, since it wouldn't have a large surplus.
i would suggest seeding the ATS in an existing tank, so just using comets for the cycle. however if i am wrong, i would love ashdavid to go into detail as too how because i was too thinking of doing the fishless cycle, but then came up the above logic.
Good question. But I have to say that staggering of your stock would be unnecessary. The Ats in a home aquarium usually takes about 3 weeks to be fully fuctional, but if bio-load is minimal it could be done a lot faster theoreticaly. The great thing about the ATS that the algae grows relativly evenly over all surfaces, the fact that there may not be enough nutrients for the algae to flourish, means that the groth rate on a whole is slowed. If nutrients were exhasted there may be a die back in the algae but will usualy be the top layers leving the basal algae still attached to the screen. So when a sudden rise in nutrients occur, the algae just answers to the demand by growing faster, providing there is ample light available.
My advise would be get the screen up and running so you can add your fish when you please. Hope this helps, and I should be getting the pics up soon, sorry again for being so slow.
My advise would be get the screen up and running so you can add your fish when you please. Hope this helps, and I should be getting the pics up soon, sorry again for being so slow.
Here are the pics, I hope they will do, I took the screens out and cleaned the scrubber, this is what behind the bukets look like.
http://www.aquaticphotos.com/details.php?image_id=787&sessionid=d27754624dfe4d8687ad62f6b393def4
http://www.aquaticphotos.com/details.php?image_id=786&sessionid=d27754624dfe4d8687ad62f6b393def4
http://www.aquaticphotos.com/details.php?image_id=785&sessionid=d27754624dfe4d8687ad62f6b393def4
http://www.aquaticphotos.com/details.php?image_id=783&mode=search
http://www.aquaticphotos.com/details.php?image_id=784&mode=search
This is a model dump bucket I made before making the big ones.
http://www.aquaticphotos.com/details.php?image_id=788&mode=search[/url]
http://www.aquaticphotos.com/details.php?image_id=787&sessionid=d27754624dfe4d8687ad62f6b393def4
http://www.aquaticphotos.com/details.php?image_id=786&sessionid=d27754624dfe4d8687ad62f6b393def4
http://www.aquaticphotos.com/details.php?image_id=785&sessionid=d27754624dfe4d8687ad62f6b393def4
http://www.aquaticphotos.com/details.php?image_id=783&mode=search
http://www.aquaticphotos.com/details.php?image_id=784&mode=search
This is a model dump bucket I made before making the big ones.
http://www.aquaticphotos.com/details.php?image_id=788&mode=search[/url]
greenmaji
Aquarium Advice Addict
NICE!
Here comes the questions..
What materials did you use to make the scrubber, is it plywood with some kind of sealer or is it acrylic as well? The dumpbuckets I can see are acrylic..
Here comes the questions..
What materials did you use to make the scrubber, is it plywood with some kind of sealer or is it acrylic as well? The dumpbuckets I can see are acrylic..
JProx
Aquarium Advice Freak
ash would it be possible to get some pics of the screens to ?
JProx
Aquarium Advice Freak
green - are you going to be using the ATS on the 75gallon tank ?
ashdavid, i am sorry if you answered these questions already, but
how many gallons is your ATS unit, or the demenisions of the holding tank?
many gallons does the dump bucket hold, how often does it dump (like once every 30mins for example) ? and are you just running 6500k MH bulbs, at like 250watts a piece or so?
and again thank you for sharing.
ashdavid, i am sorry if you answered these questions already, but
how many gallons is your ATS unit, or the demenisions of the holding tank?
many gallons does the dump bucket hold, how often does it dump (like once every 30mins for example) ? and are you just running 6500k MH bulbs, at like 250watts a piece or so?
and again thank you for sharing.
greenmaji
Aquarium Advice Addict
I will be using ATS on the 75 I just need the 29 gallon tank first.. so I need to build 2 of them.. it souldnt be a big deal.. the 29 will be the grow out tank and the 75 will be their home once they get around 3 inches in length.. Im talking about the discus again..
Im guessing that the 29 gallon ATS project will be about half the size of the 75's....
And I do remember his dumpbucket held something like 5-6 gallons and he said to get it to dump every 8-20 seconds.. his lights are 5500K MH 450watts a piece.. but the total gallons of his scrubber I would have to estamate.. the water is about 4 inches deep, thats a guess, and 2 and 1/2 square meters so thats about 7 gallons of water in the scrubber but it might have a holding tank (sump) for the pump that I dont know about..
Im guessing that the 29 gallon ATS project will be about half the size of the 75's....
And I do remember his dumpbucket held something like 5-6 gallons and he said to get it to dump every 8-20 seconds.. his lights are 5500K MH 450watts a piece.. but the total gallons of his scrubber I would have to estamate.. the water is about 4 inches deep, thats a guess, and 2 and 1/2 square meters so thats about 7 gallons of water in the scrubber but it might have a holding tank (sump) for the pump that I dont know about..
greenmaji
Aquarium Advice Addict
JProx.. How big of a reef tank are you planning to do this project on? Are you considering doing the dumpbucket design now? I think ashdavid has made pretty good arguments for it..
JProx
Aquarium Advice Freak
i am currently on the fence, i would like to try the rotating drum, however for a reef tank i am thinking something more mainstream would be a better idea, but i still haven't decided.
well the reef tank size is much like the ATS design... still up in the air. i should have a 20 gallon and a 30 hiding somewhere in the house however i yearn for the days of the large reef tank again. so i might just buy bigger tank the next time they go on sale locally, i am thinking something between 55 and 150gallons.
however my local tap water has fallen in quality recently and there is a steady increase in phosphates for some reason now. i have a 55gallon tank up and running for over 2yrs now with a pair of 10inch iridescent sharks, and couple of comets that out grew their last tank (side note: i would love to do more with this tank, but the sharks behaviors destroy everything very quickly, if i could unload these guys on someone/someplace i would in a minute.) and after top-offs and water changes i get a nasty case of green water almost every time i add new water to the tank. so maybe i will just try the rotating drum design on that tank, and see if the algea has the power to conquer my green water problems and to work out any bugs of the ATS system. and i know its not my plumbing as a family friend who lives in the same city as i do, has the exact same problem.
i would say ash has a complex system installed on his tank, and judging from the first pic he posted (showing the screens in all their glory) that is just the holding tank for the ATS, there is another pic he posted that shows his co2 setup and varies other things and there is a large tank in the background that looks to be a sump. however i really want to know what his flow rate out of the ATS is, then we can determine how long the water is held, and have some concrete info. i wish my local library was faster, i have requested that dr adley book like 2wks ago and still waiting for it be shipped from 2 cities over. sigh..
i have always loved discus, however don't they do best in moderately planted tanks with lots of cover to 'hide' in, if my memory serves me correctly that is, have you thought of weather you will do that, with real or fake plants ?
well the reef tank size is much like the ATS design... still up in the air. i should have a 20 gallon and a 30 hiding somewhere in the house however i yearn for the days of the large reef tank again. so i might just buy bigger tank the next time they go on sale locally, i am thinking something between 55 and 150gallons.
however my local tap water has fallen in quality recently and there is a steady increase in phosphates for some reason now. i have a 55gallon tank up and running for over 2yrs now with a pair of 10inch iridescent sharks, and couple of comets that out grew their last tank (side note: i would love to do more with this tank, but the sharks behaviors destroy everything very quickly, if i could unload these guys on someone/someplace i would in a minute.) and after top-offs and water changes i get a nasty case of green water almost every time i add new water to the tank. so maybe i will just try the rotating drum design on that tank, and see if the algea has the power to conquer my green water problems and to work out any bugs of the ATS system. and i know its not my plumbing as a family friend who lives in the same city as i do, has the exact same problem.
i would say ash has a complex system installed on his tank, and judging from the first pic he posted (showing the screens in all their glory) that is just the holding tank for the ATS, there is another pic he posted that shows his co2 setup and varies other things and there is a large tank in the background that looks to be a sump. however i really want to know what his flow rate out of the ATS is, then we can determine how long the water is held, and have some concrete info. i wish my local library was faster, i have requested that dr adley book like 2wks ago and still waiting for it be shipped from 2 cities over. sigh..
i have always loved discus, however don't they do best in moderately planted tanks with lots of cover to 'hide' in, if my memory serves me correctly that is, have you thought of weather you will do that, with real or fake plants ?
greenmaji
Aquarium Advice Addict
ashdavid said earlier in the answers to one of my earlier questions that the recomended flow rate was 40gallons per min per square meter.. so his flowrate would be somewhere around 6,000 gallons per hour.. again his system is freaking huge so the numbers he is working with are going to need to be cut down to something easier to work with.. I am trying to do that in this thread.. to make this easer to implement for anyone else intresed in doing this..
That would be ~225 gallons per hour per square foot of scrubber (for more manageable numbers..)
The dumpbucket needs to empty, when full, every 8-20 seconds.. so the volume of the dumpbucket needs to be ~ .5 - 1.25 gallon(s) per square foot of scrubber
Ive been talking to BrianNY, long time discus enthusist/advisor, almost ever since I joined the board.. I want to try the striped down tank approach to make sure I can keep the tanks as clean as possible.. This is a common practice among the breeders and hatcheries so Im thinking that it cant be that bad of an idea... If I was to go with plants it would be heavily planted and this ATS project would likely be detrimental to the plants (out-connsuming the nutrients) that and I dont what to have the nutrients that plants need in the tank with my discus.. and as I said earlier I want to use the ATS to remove the mucus/protine that discus produce.. this is the reason they require so much maintaince and I think ATS will help alot in that regard..
I just realized that it seems the flow rate for the scrubber is going to be less then what is recomended for reef tanks you might need to do a closed loop for the rest of your water circulation needs..
*edit* the 40gallons per min per square meter figure is suppose to be 40 liters per min per square meters.
That would be 60gallons per square foot per hour or 1 gallon per sqare foot per min.
and the dump bucket volume would need to be 2.13 (8 waves per min) to 2.7oz (10 waves per min) *edit*
I figured it would be eaiser to caclulate the volume of a wave bucket if given cubic centemeters instead of ounces.. so..
for 8 waves per min. per square foot the volume would be 63cc
for 10 waves per min. per square foot the volume would be 80cc
That would be ~225 gallons per hour per square foot of scrubber (for more manageable numbers..)
The dumpbucket needs to empty, when full, every 8-20 seconds.. so the volume of the dumpbucket needs to be ~ .5 - 1.25 gallon(s) per square foot of scrubber
Ive been talking to BrianNY, long time discus enthusist/advisor, almost ever since I joined the board.. I want to try the striped down tank approach to make sure I can keep the tanks as clean as possible.. This is a common practice among the breeders and hatcheries so Im thinking that it cant be that bad of an idea... If I was to go with plants it would be heavily planted and this ATS project would likely be detrimental to the plants (out-connsuming the nutrients) that and I dont what to have the nutrients that plants need in the tank with my discus.. and as I said earlier I want to use the ATS to remove the mucus/protine that discus produce.. this is the reason they require so much maintaince and I think ATS will help alot in that regard..
I just realized that it seems the flow rate for the scrubber is going to be less then what is recomended for reef tanks you might need to do a closed loop for the rest of your water circulation needs..
*edit* the 40gallons per min per square meter figure is suppose to be 40 liters per min per square meters.
That would be 60gallons per square foot per hour or 1 gallon per sqare foot per min.
and the dump bucket volume would need to be 2.13 (8 waves per min) to 2.7oz (10 waves per min) *edit*
I figured it would be eaiser to caclulate the volume of a wave bucket if given cubic centemeters instead of ounces.. so..
for 8 waves per min. per square foot the volume would be 63cc
for 10 waves per min. per square foot the volume would be 80cc
JProx
Aquarium Advice Freak
i looked over the thread before i asked any of the technical questions, and all i was able to find was just ranges for everything or recommended values, i was hoping for more real world results. i was going to do all the down sizing too, you just beat me to it. however if his bucket holds 5gallons of water, tipps and refills every 20seconds, thats about 15gallons a minute, and then 900 gallons an hour of incoming water. his tank is 1890g so about half the tank is turned over every hour. so ash isn't following the 40gpm rule unless i am missing something.
i asked about the plants, becuase there would be a nutrient scare in the tank, and wanted to make sure you knew that. but it seams your very through in your homework.
doing a closed loop system, is usually a given anyway on larger reef tanks, i was expecting to do it anyway, regardless. and such a systen just takes a few mins to build and implement anyway so it isn't really an issue.
as far as designs though, what have you thought up so far ?
i asked about the plants, becuase there would be a nutrient scare in the tank, and wanted to make sure you knew that. but it seams your very through in your homework.
doing a closed loop system, is usually a given anyway on larger reef tanks, i was expecting to do it anyway, regardless. and such a systen just takes a few mins to build and implement anyway so it isn't really an issue.
as far as designs though, what have you thought up so far ?
greenmaji
Aquarium Advice Addict
he has 2- 5 gallon dumpbuckets and they tip once every 10 seconds(he said about 6 times a min..).. I read super close LOL.. so thats 60 gallons a min. wich would work out to 3,600 gallons per hour.. wich is 2400gph short of the recomended 40g/square meter rule.. he did say he was having problems.. maybe we found the problem?!!!
to be honest with you I would be happy to help him out!!! TY ashdavid!!!
to be honest with you I would be happy to help him out!!! TY ashdavid!!!
greenmaji
Aquarium Advice Addict
JProx said:
Thats ok.. Ive had to read this thread over and over again to re-read all of ashdavid's posts to make sure I was getting the technical numbers right.. and sometimes he has ranges but I try to show those ranges with my calculations, like with the dumpbucket volume..
JProx said:
I had been doing alot of studying about planted tanks because I origanaly had different plans for the 75 gallon tank.. I was origanaly considering a Lake Malawi Bio-tope and wanted to have plants (I was willing to bend the rules a little to get enough plants in the tank) but after I started asking BrianNY a little about why discus needed so much maintanace I had been on a mad hunt for a solution.. and ATS has been the best solution to the problems that he mentioned.. excess mucus that causes bacteria buildup if its not removed on a regular basis via water changes... Ive desided to go with this experiment knowing that if its not working the discus will let me know real fast.. they are not shy about showing stress and Im ready and willing to do what it takes to take care of them regardless of the sucess of this...
JProx said:
I was just making an observation.. If I miss an observation feel free to fill me in, I really dont know that much about reef tanks..
JProx said:
Im going with a dumpbucket design and it depends on what kind of ballast I can get ahold of as to what kind of light I will be using wich will dictate the shape of the scrubber.. I might be looking into getting a fulham work horse 5 or 7 and doing CF or ODNO.. Im not sure yet.. 5000-6500K is what Im aiming for in color temp... I might get a ballast from Jchillin, I will deside on the design by the shape of the most powerfull configuration of bulbs it will fire.. this would be for the 29 gallon project.. I dont even know if I could get enough power out of a WH 7 for the 75 project... I have a good link for WH ballasts..
http://www.prolighting.com/woba.html
edit.. I checked the maximum wattage of the WH 7, its 220 watts.. it should do for the 75 gallon project.
Sorry again, I have been on a business trip and not had access to a PC. Well I must say that it is not good to go away for too long , too many questions to answer.
So here goes , everything that you guys have said about my scrubber volumes and turnover rates , ect are pretty much spot on, the water volume of the scrubber is not that important Imo, just make sure you have enough depth to cover the screens and that it is not too deep that it is hard to get water deep down turing over, thats why Dr Adey recomends a shallow tray. With the water flow issue , I have water flowing dirrectly into the scrubber b/c with that much water comming into the buckets the waves it produces is just too wild and water splashes every where, also Dr Adey mentions that it is not too good to have too much wave action, so after some calculations I came up with a number of more than 1 wave every 8 secs was too much , well in my case it was too much. I have heard of ATS wave patterns of one wave evry 25 secs ,but I prefer about 10 to 12secs for my scrubber. My scrubber is made out of ply with fibreglass water proofing. I will try get some pics of the screens too.
So here goes , everything that you guys have said about my scrubber volumes and turnover rates , ect are pretty much spot on, the water volume of the scrubber is not that important Imo, just make sure you have enough depth to cover the screens and that it is not too deep that it is hard to get water deep down turing over, thats why Dr Adey recomends a shallow tray. With the water flow issue , I have water flowing dirrectly into the scrubber b/c with that much water comming into the buckets the waves it produces is just too wild and water splashes every where, also Dr Adey mentions that it is not too good to have too much wave action, so after some calculations I came up with a number of more than 1 wave every 8 secs was too much , well in my case it was too much. I have heard of ATS wave patterns of one wave evry 25 secs ,but I prefer about 10 to 12secs for my scrubber. My scrubber is made out of ply with fibreglass water proofing. I will try get some pics of the screens too.
greenmaji
Aquarium Advice Addict
ashdavid.. do you need a sump for more water capasity for your pump(s) or do the the pump(s) not run dry with just the water volume in the scrubber.. ie were is/are your pump(s)?
Similar threads
