ATS (algal turf scrubber) project smaller tanks 75 and 29gal

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i thought you were quite clear in expressing the scientific nature of the book, and in no way insulting to anyone, least of all me. i could be mistake reguarding Green though, but i have said worse things to him in the last couple of weeks, lol.

i do enjoy your posts, even though most of them have torn my ideas and conclusions to pieces, but thats only natural given my limited real world experience in the subject, and have never been insulted.

and again thank you for continous efforts to educate me espially in this subject. to quote a famous radio talk show host ... there are no degrees in this field because the learning never stops, not sure if actually applies at all, but its a good quote and its sad it can't be slipped into a common conversation. (i will kudos anyone who can tell me who has said it.)

thanks again ash, i do appreicate your help.
 
No, thank you, like I said before ,I enjoy talking about this topic very much. I hope the book answers a lot of questions, I know it did for me.
 
I really dont think at any point I felt that my intelligence has been insulted by anyone posting in this thread. Regarding the book, it did seem that you were making it out to be nearly unintelligable even if it was just some areas of the book, when it comes to Quantum Physics and the characteristics of the universe seems really off topic from the sounds of it but Im sure he must have had a reason to discuss it.. If there is some information that isnt tied up until the end of the book, it will be a little frustrating but Ill have to see when it gets here how the information is tied up in the concluding portion of the book.. And thanks again for the discussion.. even if you feel it has been more enjoyable for you.. :mrgreen:
 
hey green, i was doing some research on lighting, and stumbled across this, it should have more than enough power for a 3 sq ft scrubber, and i have not seen anything this cheap before for the wattage.

http://www.insidesun.com/index.php?action=item&id=747&prevaction=category&previd=2&prevstart=0

only bad thing is it might be hard to find replacement bulbs locally, but again that website has many bulbs listed and all are pretty cheap (compared to regular MH) also only having to replace the bulb every 2-3yrs, this isn't that much an issue. i guess a lot of people in europe, don't use MH because of their expense there, and instead use MV (murcury vaper) or Hi-pressure Sodium. Sodium lamps are some of the most energy effiecient bulbs in the world, on average a 100watt Hi-press sodium only costs 26 bucks yearly, firing at 12hrs a day, i have had a fixture in my backyard for years, and have enjoyed the savings. their MH section is pretty reasonably priced too.
 
JProx.. How can you find out what color temperature (kelvin) the High Pressure Sodium bulbs are? I would like to stay in the 5000-6500K range and I dont see the K rating for the High Pressure Sodium bulbs.. I am able to find smaller ballasts and bulbs for the smaller project as well but I dont know how hot it runs (if its super effecient as you say it must run cool, hot = ineffecent), how hot does your floodlight bulb get? Is it really going to be cheaper then buiding a lightstrip with a WH7 ($40)+ the endcaps and bulbs (the bulbs are cheap on e-bay and other sorces im not sure what I would use) not to mention the WH7 is a super flexable ballast it will run anything from regular florecent lamps, VHO, CF, T5 and much more.. the High Pressure Sodium ballast is only going to run the HPS bulb :? .. It sounds really nice though the lower KWH usage but Im not sure how it actually does that. :mrgreen:
 
well your not over looking it, i can say that much. the site doesn't list the exact K rating, since the bulbs are meant for plant lighting, and term 'suitable for general plant growth' or 'suitable for the flowering/fruit period' is enough to sell the product.
5k - 6500 is suitable for general growth, and anything lower than 5k is considered a red bulb, and meant to be used during the flowering/fruiting period, to stagger growth of leaves and roots and force the plant to put that energy to fruit production.

what the site does list is where the bulbs have their peak output in the light spectrum. 5k-6500 falls into the blue, green, and violet specturm so the listing of the bulb will state that. like this one - http://www.insidesun.com/index.php?action=item&id=157&prevaction=category&previd=6&prevstart=0

i do realize this can be a bit of a gamble but lighting requirements for plants (above and below water) and coral don't differ that much (expect the demanded use of actinics) but for the few people that will go the MH way this is very cheap alternitive and will achieve very similiar results.

i understand all to well how effecienty works, and power out over power in, heat is wasted power, etc. and no light source is 100% effecient, leds are the closest at 98% of engery in, is made into light, and when they start rolling out Full spectrum leds in the next 3-10yrs look out as they are going to replace everything on the market today geared toward aquarium lighting. however HPS bulbs do get warm, warm enough to stop you from touching them while in operation, but not as hot as a regular light bulb, or MH. the actual fixture i have in my backyard is made completely of plastic if that tells you anything. Mercury Vapor runs cooler than HPS lamps but they do cost a little more to operate annualry, i beleive its about a 4dollar increase (yearly) (i have a 250watt MV floodlight hanging over my garage).

well at 75bucks for a complete system (bulb included) that should last well over 3yrs without any color indexing problems its tough to turn down, you do get more wattage than a WH7, and it only uses 1 bulb, replacement bulbs run about 40-60 bucks, but they do last for the minimium of 3yrs (probably much longer) with the regular florescent bulbs you will have to replace them every 8-12months.

Mathmatical conslusion-
if you use 4 bulbs and daylight bulbs at my local HomeDepot run 7+ a bulb, and replace them once a year, that will be 28bucks.
in 3yrs it will be 84 bucks.
if the HPS bulb runs 60 bucks, 84-60 = 24 dollar savings,
lets say endcaps are 3bucks a peice 3 x 8(number of needed caps) = 24
40bucks (WH7) + 24(caps) +28(bulbs) = 92bucks
total price to get into a HPS system today 75bucks.
and you will save 24 every 3 yrs, plus the difference in annual running costs.

i don't know if its better for you to make the switch or not since the wattage of both systems is close, but using math you will pay more to keep a florescent system running over an HPS. only bad thing is having to find bulbs locally but 1 bulb = 250watts, just as powerful as MH systems but cheaper.

i am probably going to go with ODNO if i can find a cheap elec. ballast or HPS system, when it comes time to worry about lighting,
still no word on my book yet, arg! 3rd party sellers on amazon, i will never do that again.
 
I think I just figured out the effecencey of HPS.. its the freaking lumens! they have double the output of MH with the same wattage. 8O
 
I dont need that much light for may project! LOL. I would need one half that wattage or less for the big scrubber project.. and thats the smallest one that sight sells. :?
 
well your not hurting anything by going bigger than what you need. and as a full blooded american the more the better, in any situation. and it could really help push the algea to its growth limit, and reproduction. and you would save money going HPS than flo. lighting anyway.
 
This morning I finally sat down with a pencil, a pad of paper and a calculator to do some math in regards to my rotating drum design. I wish I could just ask the 2 questions without going through the trouble of showing my math, and actually listing my thoughts, but hopefully people can understand my questions better if I do so. My original idea was to find PVC end caps at 6in diameter, and get either 8in or 12 in PVC pipe and use that as the actual drum, the pipe would be modified to allow the passage of air and water through the middle. The math I did is as follows.

Formula for circumference – 2π x R2
Formula for area of the lateral side of a cylinder - 2π x R x H
a) R = 3in , h = 8 in
Answer for Area of lateral side – 150.796 sq in or 1.0472 sq ft. [.09729 sq m]
b) R = 3in, h = 12in
Answer for area of lateral side – 226.1945 sq in or 1.571 sq ft. [0.14595 sq m]

If the lighting rule is:
10.7639 sq ft [equal to 1 sq metter] = 1000watts Then, 5.38195 sq ft = 500watts,
2.69097 sq ft = 250watts, 1.34548 sq ft = 125watts

So if I was to build the drum with D – 6in and H – 12 I would need about 125watts of light, and would it provide enough surface area for an effective scrubber? Is there a proportion to sq ft and effectiveness? I know the more you provide the better, but is there a general rule, that surface area of xx sq ft is suitable for a xx gallon tank ? I don’t have my book yet, and would like to know if I should continue banging the rotating drum (ha! Pun) or just move on to a tray system. Of course I can always just double up on wheels, and have 3.142 sq ft [0.2919 sq m] but then I would need 2 dump buckets for effective wave actions, if I just went with one dump, the first wheel would take the brunt of the force and the 2nd wheel would just get the leftovers if any, and of course if I doubled up, a much more complex system would be a necessary. Ashdavid or green I would love to get some input from you on surface area verses effectiveness and if any proportions exist and your thoughts. And I know ash you dislike the drum design, but if I used a rectangle tray with the same dimensions (L – 12 , W – 8 H - 1) the surface would be about 224 sq in, close to the drum, but actually taking up more space, to gain near equal area. Which is my motivating factor, making my ATS as small and contained as possible
 
I am taking in consideration that your drum design is more of an experiment in removing nutrients in your freshwater tank and you will be using the tray design for your reef project in the future (Im not sure if ashdavid has noticed this point but I think its needed to reduce confusion).
ashdavid started off the discussion by saying use half the surface area of the tank your going to be filtering as a general guide to sizing the scrubber surface area, Ive read one square inch per gallon as a general rule as well. I think this is for standard tanks and if you have a rather tall tank I would make it bigger then this. you also have the up to 50% growth loss.. I cant remember how big your FW tank is so I would venture to guess just make the surface area the same as the tank for the drum to make up for the loss in algae growth (this should be possible) Hope this helps..
And as far as the HPS goes.. I would really not like putting 30,000 lumens over the big scrubber (thats nearly 500watts of MH light) I like over kill but thats just plan ridiculous, and would likely make me shrink the size of the scrubber.
If you know how to shop for the components and put a HPS system together that is smaller then 250watts then Im all ears. :p
 
Ok Jprox , I know you like the drum system and to be perfectly honest with you I have never tried it, BUT if you do the math on it the drum system will never match the tray system if the surface areas were the same. This will be a very simple explanation.
Lets say you the same surface area of screen on a drum type and a tray type.
#1: As the drum rotates there will be algae in the dark , and as you may already know the longer algae is in light the better it grows, so realisticaly you are reducing the photo period by this design. With the tray system it is always in the light taking full effect of the light contiunously.
#2: As Dr Adey says in his book the wave motion is very important which the drum type in theory will not have.
#3: You cannot get away with less light and expect the same results, but you already know that.

The only draw back is that the ATS takes up a bit of room.
Btw I am still in the process of getting the pics of my screens posted.Sorry for the wait.
 
I just picked up the book from the library today.. I havent cracked it yet but I might be busy for a while reading it.. Ill check back soon.. :p
 
After reading a great deal of the book at this point.. It seems it does have alot more to do with aquaria then I was expecting (limiting the size of these ecosystems is nessisary in comparing them to the ones done in the book..) well there is a 70 gallon blackwater tank that is alot more feasible.. it also seems there is a reference work that could be inspected for more information on ATS.. the book is called Utilizing Cultured Algal Turfs (Adey, W. and Hackney, J 1989).. well.. this book has me thinking about ecosystems and ecology now.. I am wondering if I can make the food chain top heavy or ignore all of this information and focus on the scrubber..
ashdavid.. do you have a "sediment trap" and what did you not like about the "perpetual motion" designed scrubber?
The algae types seem to be the same with one exception between FW and SW.. so a turf is suppose to be the outcome. Im really curious what algae is on your screen now and if its in layers like the book shows.. TIA
 
The "perpetual motion" Ats would be good too, but don't scale up very well, so b/c of the size of the ATS I am dealing with I chose the my the tray design. And yes you can ognore a lot of the info and make your tank top heavy in regards to the food chain, all you have to do is keep adding food for those fish and theoretically have the ATS srcub the excess nutrients out for you. I do have a sediment trap, but it dose not work very good, so b/c I am not concerned with plankton I use normal filter wool for mechanical filtration. And to answer your last question, yes the algae is in layers , but I have a lot of trouble controling algae eating larvae and sometimes I have difficulties controling macro algae, it all seems to happen in cycles.
 
There is a reference in the book about examples of sediment traps in the book but I have lost my place.. Could either of you ashdavid or JProx help me find it again.. :(
the perpetual motion design does seem a little on the difficult side for you (because of size).. but It would be a challenge to figure out out to design it to rock with the correct amount of counterweight and placement of the axis to get the correct number of intervals per min.. I would like to work on a sediment trap as well, do you think that FW clams or mussels would consume the sediment? That might help as well :p

btw. the book was refiring to a larva that could cause problems in FW and anthropoids in SW and to scrape the scrubber walls and other surfaces periodically to help control there population.. HTH
also according to the book macro algaes shouldnt be a problem unless the scrubber isnt scraped for too long.. how long is it taking for maco's to start growing after a scraping?
I also noticed that there was no reference to using 1X1mm screen that I could see for SW.. there was 2X2mm screen and 2X4mm polyuratane screen materials refenced..
 
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