ATS (algal turf scrubber) project smaller tanks 75 and 29gal

[ashdavid]

I have my book at the office and I have every relevant page and paragraph outlined so when I get to work tomorrow I will have a look for you. As for the clams or mussles eating sediment I don't see why that wouldn't work, it should make an interesting addition to your tank.
Yes the larva are a proplem and even though I scrape every 7 days they still find places to multiply, I suppose with a smaller ATS it would be easier to maintain. As for the macro algae, what it seems to do is grow on top of the micro algae covers it, I must admit this only happens occasionaly and it only takes a few days( remember macro algae grows fast too just not quite as fast as micro algae). I tried the 1*1 mesh but patches of algae kept on peeling off , I am not 100% sure if it was b/c the mesh was too small but I have my suspicions. I find the 2*2 mesh easier to maintain.

 

[greenmaji]

Ive looked the book over again and the examples were really not there, they ended up excluding the sediment traps from the systems and then commented that they should have included them..
from what Im understanding though it should be kind of like a sump with baffles to slow down the water to allow the sediment to fall before being pumped away.. that would be the likely location of sediment feeders in my system (unless of course it seems like the main tank could use some as well)
Im thinking there should be a predator for the larvae somewhere

 

[JProx]

i am still thumbing through the book myself, about 150 pages or so left to go. maji you are right about the lack of examples about sediment traps i have found this a little silly myself. anyway i am thinking i am going to selectably re-read some sections though just to make sure its all mentally absorbed.

 

[greenmaji]

How is it the algal turf scrubber raises the PH of a tank? Is it that it removes all the CO2? I havnt seen this explained, by the book or otherwise. TIA

 

[ashdavid]

As you say it removes the Co2 from the water and therefore the ph rises. On a different note ATS can also lower the kh by using carbonates in the water if there is not enough Co2 for the algae to use, which would have a ph lowering effect. In reality even with the kh lowered the ph will still be very high. Eg, in my tank I did an experiment to see how high the ph would go without injecting Co2, My kh was 1 kh or less and the ph went to over 9, so the point I am trying to make is Co2 injection is needed if you want a low ph.

 

[greenmaji]

In reality even with the kh lowered the ph will still be very high. Eg, in my tank I did an experiment to see how high the ph would go without injecting Co2, My kh was 1 kh or less and the ph went to over 9, so the point I am trying to make is Co2 injection is needed if you want a low ph.

Why did that happen? Is there a explination for it, it just doesnt make sense thats all.
Why would the PH continue to go up?

 

[ashdavid]

As you may know , when Co2 is added to water it produces an acid and therefore lowering the ph(or acidifing the water), so on the other hand when Co2 is taken out of the water, like when algae or plants photosynthesize, naturaly the ph will go up as the Co2 is used. Ofcourse there is a point to when the ph will not go up b/c lack of Co2. In the wild there is an unlimited source of Co2 for the plants to use, so it is very rare to see water with low kh and at the same time have a high ph. On the other hand in our tanks Co2 is quicky used up due to the small water volume. This is exactly why ATS's, will never allow a crash situation to occur, even in a very low buffered tank. That is why your typical bio-filters are not recomended by Dr Adey, b/c bacteria uses oxygen and produce Co2 and there giving way to possible crash situations.

 

[greenmaji]

I guess what Im asking is what is the PH of your tapwater or source water of your aquarium after it has been gassed out? is the PH 9? I know gassing the water out still leaves about 3ppm(approximation) of CO2 in the test water but will this be close (a little less then the actual value) to the highest value that the tank will achieve without CO2 injection?
Not to go against your previous advice but I dont see why someone wanting a marine reef setup would want to inject CO2 to lower there PH to something like 8.3.. this is just for reference and to make sense of whats going on..

 

[ashdavid]

I was refering to an acidic FW tank, with SW tanks there would be no reason to inject Co2 , IME SW tanks are better of with a ph of around 8.2 to 8.6, and as you may know most people recomend the higest possible ph you can get, which the ATS is perfect for doing as I explained eariler. Tests on the ATS proved that in a SW Tank the ph normaly will not go above 8.6 ph , in normal tank opperations , obviously this result may be higher in some instances.
My tank water has a ph of about 6.8 to 7.2. After the tank water has been scrubbed for a while the KH slowly decreases.

 

[ashdavid]

I meant to say my tap water has a ph of 6.8 to 7.2 ph, sorry.

 

[greenmaji]

I was just wondering if the high PH caused by the ATS scrubbing might be due to the GH that is not removed once the CO2 and KH has been depleted.. And if so could the high point be controlled by keeping the GH at a certian level..
I might be nitpicking this to a point that you havnt tested if so, just say so..

 

[ashdavid]

No I havn't tested that theory, but my gh is about 2 or there abouts. As you may already know the gh will not affect the ph whatsoever,it is the kh and Co2 and maybe a few other factors that will effect the ph, like phosphate buffers, but I do not use any buffers so that can not be considered. The fact is that the algae takes almost all of the Co2 out of the water and therefore raises the ph.

 

[ashdavid]

How is the project going everyone?

 

[greenmaji]

Im reconsidering the application.. reef actually..
Im thinking that it will tear through alkalinity.. so suplementing it will be a bigger issue then normal..
http://www.tropicalresources.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=12258
steves post there just backs up everything you have been saying about this..
what to use to build this is also running through my head as well..
Ill likely have to build or mod a skimmer and I havnt got done shopping for the main tank lighting or the RO/DI system.. so its on the back burner sizzling right now..

 

[greenmaji]

I cant belive that Im doing this LOL.. but Im going to post a link to earlier in my own thread.. this one!
http://www.aquariumadvice.com/viewtopic.php?t=56247&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=70
I edited my calculations post 5 times so far.. now that I think Ive done it correctly.. Please someone check my math. 8O
The flow is absolutly a trickle of what I thought it was going to be..
My old fluval 304 puts out at least two times that rate of flow.. no joke..
Im posting this now becaue there has been a development in my situation..
Ive bought lighting ballasts from e-bay and there in transit as I type..
Enough for the tank and the scrubber.. all for less then $80!!!! WOOOT!!
Now I really need to know how much flow I need so I can deisgn my system..
So.. JProx, ashdavid.. I need help bad.. I really dont want to screw this up in the
planning stages after mulling everything over for this long. :?

 

[ashdavid]

How much surface area will the scrubber be? And just to refresh my memory how big is the tank? I should also mention that those flow stats are a minimum, you can go a little higher than that without any detrimental effects.

 

[greenmaji]

Its a 75 gallon tank.. there is a good chance I will be using a 29 gallon as the sump..
And you think my calculations were right? even if there bare minimum at least I didnt miscalculate..
the scrubber should be about 2 square feet..
Im getting a 4 lamp HO ballast that I ordered soon in the mail.. Im planning on using it for the scrubber..I think it is rated for a maximum of 16ft of HO lamps.. Im not sure what that is wattage wise but I know its minimum 220watts possibly more.
I tryed to look up the wattages of standard HO lamps recently and I keep getting hits on T-5 HO instead of the old T-12's.. if anyone knows what the standard wattage is on a 4 foot T-12 High Output lamp I would be very appresitive for the information.

 

[ashdavid]

All calculations seem to be fine, but I would be trying to get the flow up a little bit. The light if it is 220w should be fine too.

 

[greenmaji]

How much flow would you suggest then? the calculations came up with a minium of 120gph for the 2 square foot scrubber I have in mind.. I will likely be dialing down a more powerfull pump for this anyway (with a valve on its output side) I just need to know so I can design the wave bucket for the correct volume.. and Thanks for your input..

 

[ashdavid]

I would at least be trying to get the tank to turnover 3-4 times an hour. If that invloves to much water going into the dump bucket, run a seperate hose that feeds into the tray and run it over the srceen that way. Dr Adey suggest this when higher flow rates are necessary.