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Old 07-16-2005, 10:26 AM   #71
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I will be using ATS on the 75 I just need the 29 gallon tank first.. so I need to build 2 of them.. it souldnt be a big deal.. the 29 will be the grow out tank and the 75 will be their home once they get around 3 inches in length.. Im talking about the discus again..

Im guessing that the 29 gallon ATS project will be about half the size of the 75's....

And I do remember his dumpbucket held something like 5-6 gallons and he said to get it to dump every 8-20 seconds.. his lights are 5500K MH 450watts a piece.. but the total gallons of his scrubber I would have to estamate.. the water is about 4 inches deep, thats a guess, and 2 and 1/2 square meters so thats about 7 gallons of water in the scrubber but it might have a holding tank (sump) for the pump that I dont know about..
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Old 07-16-2005, 10:28 AM   #72
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JProx.. How big of a reef tank are you planning to do this project on? Are you considering doing the dumpbucket design now? I think ashdavid has made pretty good arguments for it..
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Old 07-16-2005, 10:57 AM   #73
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i am currently on the fence, i would like to try the rotating drum, however for a reef tank i am thinking something more mainstream would be a better idea, but i still haven't decided.

well the reef tank size is much like the ATS design... still up in the air. i should have a 20 gallon and a 30 hiding somewhere in the house however i yearn for the days of the large reef tank again. so i might just buy bigger tank the next time they go on sale locally, i am thinking something between 55 and 150gallons.

however my local tap water has fallen in quality recently and there is a steady increase in phosphates for some reason now. i have a 55gallon tank up and running for over 2yrs now with a pair of 10inch iridescent sharks, and couple of comets that out grew their last tank (side note: i would love to do more with this tank, but the sharks behaviors destroy everything very quickly, if i could unload these guys on someone/someplace i would in a minute.) and after top-offs and water changes i get a nasty case of green water almost every time i add new water to the tank. so maybe i will just try the rotating drum design on that tank, and see if the algea has the power to conquer my green water problems and to work out any bugs of the ATS system. and i know its not my plumbing as a family friend who lives in the same city as i do, has the exact same problem.

i would say ash has a complex system installed on his tank, and judging from the first pic he posted (showing the screens in all their glory) that is just the holding tank for the ATS, there is another pic he posted that shows his co2 setup and varies other things and there is a large tank in the background that looks to be a sump. however i really want to know what his flow rate out of the ATS is, then we can determine how long the water is held, and have some concrete info. i wish my local library was faster, i have requested that dr adley book like 2wks ago and still waiting for it be shipped from 2 cities over. sigh..

i have always loved discus, however don't they do best in moderately planted tanks with lots of cover to 'hide' in, if my memory serves me correctly that is, have you thought of weather you will do that, with real or fake plants ?
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Old 07-16-2005, 12:53 PM   #74
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ashdavid said earlier in the answers to one of my earlier questions that the recomended flow rate was 40gallons per min per square meter.. so his flowrate would be somewhere around 6,000 gallons per hour.. again his system is freaking huge so the numbers he is working with are going to need to be cut down to something easier to work with.. I am trying to do that in this thread.. to make this easer to implement for anyone else intresed in doing this..

That would be ~225 gallons per hour per square foot of scrubber (for more manageable numbers..)
The dumpbucket needs to empty, when full, every 8-20 seconds.. so the volume of the dumpbucket needs to be ~ .5 - 1.25 gallon(s) per square foot of scrubber

Ive been talking to BrianNY, long time discus enthusist/advisor, almost ever since I joined the board.. I want to try the striped down tank approach to make sure I can keep the tanks as clean as possible.. This is a common practice among the breeders and hatcheries so Im thinking that it cant be that bad of an idea... If I was to go with plants it would be heavily planted and this ATS project would likely be detrimental to the plants (out-connsuming the nutrients) that and I dont what to have the nutrients that plants need in the tank with my discus.. and as I said earlier I want to use the ATS to remove the mucus/protine that discus produce.. this is the reason they require so much maintaince and I think ATS will help alot in that regard..

I just realized that it seems the flow rate for the scrubber is going to be less then what is recomended for reef tanks you might need to do a closed loop for the rest of your water circulation needs..

*edit* the 40gallons per min per square meter figure is suppose to be 40 liters per min per square meters.
That would be 60gallons per square foot per hour or 1 gallon per sqare foot per min.
and the dump bucket volume would need to be 2.13 (8 waves per min) to 2.7oz (10 waves per min) *edit*


I figured it would be eaiser to caclulate the volume of a wave bucket if given cubic centemeters instead of ounces.. so..
for 8 waves per min. per square foot the volume would be 63cc
for 10 waves per min. per square foot the volume would be 80cc
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Old 07-16-2005, 08:55 PM   #75
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i looked over the thread before i asked any of the technical questions, and all i was able to find was just ranges for everything or recommended values, i was hoping for more real world results. i was going to do all the down sizing too, you just beat me to it. however if his bucket holds 5gallons of water, tipps and refills every 20seconds, thats about 15gallons a minute, and then 900 gallons an hour of incoming water. his tank is 1890g so about half the tank is turned over every hour. so ash isn't following the 40gpm rule unless i am missing something.

i asked about the plants, becuase there would be a nutrient scare in the tank, and wanted to make sure you knew that. but it seams your very through in your homework.

doing a closed loop system, is usually a given anyway on larger reef tanks, i was expecting to do it anyway, regardless. and such a systen just takes a few mins to build and implement anyway so it isn't really an issue.

as far as designs though, what have you thought up so far ?
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Old 07-16-2005, 09:47 PM   #76
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he has 2- 5 gallon dumpbuckets and they tip once every 10 seconds(he said about 6 times a min..).. I read super close LOL.. so thats 60 gallons a min. wich would work out to 3,600 gallons per hour.. wich is 2400gph short of the recomended 40g/square meter rule.. he did say he was having problems.. maybe we found the problem?!!!
to be honest with you I would be happy to help him out!!! TY ashdavid!!!
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Old 07-16-2005, 10:39 PM   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JProx
i looked over the thread before i asked any of the technical questions, and all i was able to find was just ranges for everything or recommended values, i was hoping for more real world results. i was going to do all the down sizing too, you just beat me to it. however if his bucket holds 5gallons of water, tipps and refills every 20seconds, thats about 15gallons a minute, and then 900 gallons an hour of incoming water. his tank is 1890g so about half the tank is turned over every hour. so ash isn't following the 40gpm rule unless i am missing something.
Thats ok.. Ive had to read this thread over and over again to re-read all of ashdavid's posts to make sure I was getting the technical numbers right.. and sometimes he has ranges but I try to show those ranges with my calculations, like with the dumpbucket volume..

Quote:
Originally Posted by JProx
i asked about the plants, becuase there would be a nutrient scare in the tank, and wanted to make sure you knew that. but it seams your very through in your homework.
I had been doing alot of studying about planted tanks because I origanaly had different plans for the 75 gallon tank.. I was origanaly considering a Lake Malawi Bio-tope and wanted to have plants (I was willing to bend the rules a little to get enough plants in the tank) but after I started asking BrianNY a little about why discus needed so much maintanace I had been on a mad hunt for a solution.. and ATS has been the best solution to the problems that he mentioned.. excess mucus that causes bacteria buildup if its not removed on a regular basis via water changes... Ive desided to go with this experiment knowing that if its not working the discus will let me know real fast.. they are not shy about showing stress and Im ready and willing to do what it takes to take care of them regardless of the sucess of this...

Quote:
Originally Posted by JProx
doing a closed loop system, is usually a given anyway on larger reef tanks, i was expecting to do it anyway, regardless. and such a systen just takes a few mins to build and implement anyway so it isn't really an issue.
I was just making an observation.. If I miss an observation feel free to fill me in, I really dont know that much about reef tanks..

Quote:
Originally Posted by JProx
as far as designs though, what have you thought up so far ?
Im going with a dumpbucket design and it depends on what kind of ballast I can get ahold of as to what kind of light I will be using wich will dictate the shape of the scrubber.. I might be looking into getting a fulham work horse 5 or 7 and doing CF or ODNO.. Im not sure yet.. 5000-6500K is what Im aiming for in color temp... I might get a ballast from Jchillin, I will deside on the design by the shape of the most powerfull configuration of bulbs it will fire.. this would be for the 29 gallon project.. I dont even know if I could get enough power out of a WH 7 for the 75 project... I have a good link for WH ballasts..
http://www.prolighting.com/woba.html

edit.. I checked the maximum wattage of the WH 7, its 220 watts.. it should do for the 75 gallon project.
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Old 07-18-2005, 01:48 AM   #78
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Sorry again, I have been on a business trip and not had access to a PC. Well I must say that it is not good to go away for too long , too many questions to answer.

So here goes , everything that you guys have said about my scrubber volumes and turnover rates , ect are pretty much spot on, the water volume of the scrubber is not that important Imo, just make sure you have enough depth to cover the screens and that it is not too deep that it is hard to get water deep down turing over, thats why Dr Adey recomends a shallow tray. With the water flow issue , I have water flowing dirrectly into the scrubber b/c with that much water comming into the buckets the waves it produces is just too wild and water splashes every where, also Dr Adey mentions that it is not too good to have too much wave action, so after some calculations I came up with a number of more than 1 wave every 8 secs was too much , well in my case it was too much. I have heard of ATS wave patterns of one wave evry 25 secs ,but I prefer about 10 to 12secs for my scrubber. My scrubber is made out of ply with fibreglass water proofing. I will try get some pics of the screens too.
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Old 07-18-2005, 01:51 AM   #79
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With the wave issue I think somewhere in the book that Dr Adey says that with one of the experimental ATS that the max wave rate was one every 8 secs.
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Old 07-18-2005, 02:35 AM   #80
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ashdavid.. do you need a sump for more water capasity for your pump(s) or do the the pump(s) not run dry with just the water volume in the scrubber.. ie were is/are your pump(s)?
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