Go Back   Aquarium Advice - Aquarium Forum Community > General Aquarium Forums > DIY Projects
Click Here to Login

Join Aquarium Advice Today
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Please support our sponsors and let them know you heard about them on AquariumAdvice.com
 
Old 10-04-2008, 03:46 PM   #31
AA Team Emeritus
 
jsoong's Avatar


 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Edmonton, Canada
Posts: 4,222
Return pump flow problem: Water will tend to go where there is lowest resistance, so it will tend to go straight in that Y. To get a balanced flow, you might have to make a real spray bar: idea - attach a length of pipe to the outputs, cap the end & drill holes to direct the flow <just like a commercial spray bar.> You need to have a little bit of pressure inside the return to direct the water through all the holes. In your setup, the pipes are so large that there may be no pressure at all in your "spray bar", and the water will all go out the first hole of least resistance & not through the other.

Water level problem: No matter what you do, the highest "minimum tank level" is going to be the bottom of the u at your return. You can take the U outside of your platform <maybe a 45 degree angle at the bulkhead, take the U up above the platform, then back under ... ugly I know....> Alternatively, you can have your overflow start draining water at a lower tank level so you won't have a dry return pump. Eg - if you do the siphon water uptake from the bottom of the tank <the left side of my drawing>, you can set the tank level lower than your overflow box height. Finally, if your pump is elevated, you might be able to get enough water by setting an elbow at the pump intake so it can draw water lower down ... or you can have a bigger sump ....
__________________

__________________
80 gal FW with 30 gal DIY wet/dry/sump.
9 fancy golds, 1 hillstream loaches, 1 rubber-lip pleco (C. thomasi), 3 SAEs, small school of white cloud minnows, planted.
jsoong is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-05-2008, 02:42 AM   #32
Aquarium Advice Regular
 
Jimothy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Washington DC
Posts: 73
-Spraybar
Where would I drill the holes, in the cap or on the sides or everywhere? I was thinking about reducing the 1.5" ends down to 3/4" or something, making a more narrow, faster flow that would come out of both outputs, to keep putting energy into this design will need for me to have the other issues settled though...

-Minimum Water Level
I dont want to bring the return line out from underneath the platform, so if the water levels off there I have some questions about the U drain siphon...
You explained how to start it, what stops it?
Is it when the water level in the O.F. rises and is equal to the display level? Would water falling back down in the O.F. then restart the siphon?

If this, using my current return line, is the way I am going to go then I should figure out the O.F. standpipes. Should the U drain be a full U? From the bottom of the display tank over to the bottom of the O.F.? Wont it simply keep feeding the drain pipes of the O.F. and cause a flood? Are the heights of the O.F. standpipes key here?
How is any of this setting the drain level to the 'minimum tank level'?

OtherOption
If I can make this work then I want to, though I had already thought of an alternative:
O.F. box has 1 in and 1 out, and hole under platform has strainer, under tank the bulkhead attaches to a valve (almost always closed) that ends in a nipple that I can clamp a hose to, and only use this to make water changes from the bottom of the tank...
The timeliness hassle with this option, having to redo everything is less acute in that I will most likely replace the pump... it is too loud and the water flow through the sump too fast... also I think I will stain and seal the stand within the next week, allowing more time to perfect design options.
Any recomendations on a good silent pump with good gph but maybe not this much?
__________________

__________________
Jimothy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-05-2008, 01:51 PM   #33
AA Team Emeritus
 
jsoong's Avatar


 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Edmonton, Canada
Posts: 4,222
Spray bar - drill holes where you want the water to go. A commercial spray bar has a row of small holes along the pipe, but since you are making your own, you can customize it to your tank.

Siphon drain - What stops the water from draining is the height of the standpipe. Water will drain down to the level of the standpipe - this would be your min. water level. Once you started the siphon in the u-tube, that should stay "on" even if the pump is off, as the siphon tube is underwater in both ends. <So yes, you want your u-tube deep in the water on both sides. This is an eg of the u-tube: http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=4024>

Perhaps an animation will make this clearer:
Melevsreef.com - What is a Sump?
In his drawing, he used a baffle in the overflow box to control the min water level. <which is external, while yours is internal - same principles applies> In your case, the standpipe is the baffle. Also, he used a skimmer box to draw water from the top of the tank. Just imagine that box a lot deeper so it is drawing water from the bottom of the tank.

With a siphon setup like my left drawing, it is possible to have a flood if your standpipe leaks/falls off, etc. The safer alternative is the right drawing, but then your min. water level would be your current height of your overflow box.

Quiet pump - I would suggest you start a new thread in general equipment forum. State your gph & ask for people's recommendation. Ehiem pumps are supposed to be the quietest, but I have not used one personally. <I use a Hydor pump, and it does have a noticeable hum.>
__________________
80 gal FW with 30 gal DIY wet/dry/sump.
9 fancy golds, 1 hillstream loaches, 1 rubber-lip pleco (C. thomasi), 3 SAEs, small school of white cloud minnows, planted.
jsoong is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-06-2008, 02:50 PM   #34
Aquarium Advice Regular
 
Jimothy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Washington DC
Posts: 73
I am not sure of which directions I would like the spraybar to point, maybe just narrow the openings I have now to 1" and see how that affects it.


For the U siphon, when the pump is off it would look like this, with water levels equalled and no air in the U:






Then, when the pump comes on, the water level rises and the siphon moves water through the U immediately?








The standpipe(s) should be at the same level as the minimum display level or just barely above it?
Should I use 2 durso standpipes? One pipe is 1" and the other is 1.5", any recommendations?
__________________
Jimothy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-07-2008, 03:55 PM   #35
AA Team Emeritus
 
jsoong's Avatar


 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Edmonton, Canada
Posts: 4,222
You got the idea .... Water flows through the siphon immediately as the water level on both side will want to be at the same level. The stand pipe height IS your minimum water level in an open setup (as in your drawing). <If you do a Durso, the min water level is the bottom of the T opening & the operating water level is around the middle of the T, & will fluctuate a bit. If you do a full siphon drain, the min water level is at the bottom of the inverted U and the operating level is whatever level the water needs to be to deliver the gph your pump is putting out ... this is going to be at least 3-4" difference & may be too much for your sump. A way to get around all this is to install a baffle in the overflow, then that will set your min. water level.>

One thing you need to worry about is the size of the siphon. The smaller the siphon, the higher the water level difference between your tank & overflow during operation <and hence the larger your sump need to be.> I find that a 1" siphon will need about 1/2 - 3/4" head to drive 1000 gph flow. So at your 2000 gph, you would be wise to use 2 siphons. <You have an advantage in having the internal overflow box, if the siphon can't keep up, water will just go over the lid of the overflow & won't cause a flood.>

1 or 2 Durso - It will be quieter to run one, but at 2000 gph, a 2" Durso might not be able to handle that flow with the water level set to the middle of the T. I would experiment with just one & see if you can get a small enough water level difference between your operating & min water level for your sump. If it works, then have the 2nd one <open channel> slightly higher than the Durso as a backup. Otherwise, run 2.
__________________
80 gal FW with 30 gal DIY wet/dry/sump.
9 fancy golds, 1 hillstream loaches, 1 rubber-lip pleco (C. thomasi), 3 SAEs, small school of white cloud minnows, planted.
jsoong is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-07-2008, 06:22 PM   #36
Aquarium Advice Regular
 
Jimothy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Washington DC
Posts: 73
Here is U:



Sucked the air out and siphon instantly equalled display to OF:



The sump is as full as it safely can be, pump runs, it is barely fed by water rushing through the sump, I think the flow is way too high:





The water runs so fast that it is going over the first sump baffle rather than through the filtration (do I have too much filter floss and foam?), also the OF box water level is nearly the same as the display tank, not sure it this poses a problem.
I am not sure if I would like to reduce the minimum start level so the OF water level can be lower or if I would like to redo everything and have an IN and OUT pipe for the overflow box, and use the hole under the platform for small daily water changes. With my current set up I siphon water out into a rubbermaid and feed the turtles in it everyday, performing a small water change and concentrating the mess of food/waste outside my tank to be dumped out back door or down toilet (depends on season).

I do know that the pump is too much... too much noise and too much flow for the sump... any rough estimates of what gph I should go with if 2400 produces this much?
__________________
Jimothy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-08-2008, 09:07 PM   #37
AA Team Emeritus
 
jsoong's Avatar


 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Edmonton, Canada
Posts: 4,222
Your siphon is not keeping up with your pump, that's why water is spilling over your overflow. As I said before, you need at least 2 1" (ID) siphons to handle that flow.

It is no big deal having your water spill over the top of the OF, but the whole purpose of taking water from the bottom with a siphon is to have a lower operating water level so your pump won't run dry inside the sump. Right now, your tank level is higher than planned, so you don't have enough water in the sump for that 2400 gph pump.

As to what is happening in the sump, can you make a drawing of the sump baffles? The setup of the baffles doesn't quite look right to me.
__________________
80 gal FW with 30 gal DIY wet/dry/sump.
9 fancy golds, 1 hillstream loaches, 1 rubber-lip pleco (C. thomasi), 3 SAEs, small school of white cloud minnows, planted.
jsoong is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-08-2008, 09:33 PM   #38
Aquarium Advice Regular
 
Jimothy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Washington DC
Posts: 73
I'll post a drawing in a little bit, though I do want to clarify that I want the U siphon(s) pulling from bottom AND some skimming of the surface overthe top of the overflow... I have teeth that I will instal once plumbing is complete:




off to store for 2 elbo's to make another U siphon...
brb
__________________
Jimothy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-08-2008, 10:10 PM   #39
Aquarium Advice Regular
 
Jimothy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Washington DC
Posts: 73
Ok, this is sump:



I bought this with my tank, made by them.
What doesnt look right?
__________________
Jimothy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-09-2008, 01:03 PM   #40
AA Team Emeritus
 
Ziggy953's Avatar



POTM Champion
Tank of the Month Award
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Owings Mills, Maryland
Posts: 9,101
I think you need to turn the pump down. With the flow you are getting I don't think siphoning from the bottom is an issue.

Your baffles look fine to me. That is exactly how I would have set them up if I had built this sump.
__________________

Ziggy953 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
flow, overflow, plumbing, sump

Please support our sponsors and let them know you heard about them on AquariumAdvice.com

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Sump Plumbing Hairy_Harold DIY Projects 2 02-08-2009 01:45 AM
180g FW with 65g sump/refugium Jimothy Freshwater & Brackish - Planted Tanks 3 10-08-2008 04:38 PM
Need help with sump plumbing!!!! sonoma2nv Saltwater Reef Aquaria 8 01-13-2006 09:11 AM
Sump Plumbing SpEd Saltwater Reef Aquaria 4 06-23-2005 08:24 PM
Mostly sump plumbing... mtglore Saltwater & Reef - Getting Started 4 06-11-2003 09:07 PM







» Photo Contest Winners








Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 05:45 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.