Plumbing 180g FW to 65g sump

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Jimothy

Aquarium Advice Regular
Joined
Sep 19, 2008
Messages
73
Location
Washington DC
I have been creating/refining my design over the past couple weeks on here while my tanks seals finished hardening, lots of help thanks so much.

I have completed my flow design and have a MagDrive#24, intake strainers and ball valves in the mail.

Here is a diagram of how the tank was built/drilled:
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There is a lowered platform I will add rocks to, built in ramp, and overflow box which sets the water level 1/2" below the platform. There are holes drilled in the overflow box allowing 1" and 1.5" pipes. Underneath the platform is a hole allowing a 1.5" pipe that I intended to use as an intake for Fluval 405... but then I learned about potential siphoning and flooding during a power outage.

Here is a diagram including the equipment:
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The hole under the platform will let the return line through, ending in a manifold at the surface facing in multiple directions to enhance flow accross the tank. The 1.5" pipe will have a strainer and the 1" will be a U over the lip of the overflow that will draw from the bottom of the display:
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The diagram shows siphon breaking holes on the pipe in the box, though I have changed that to just below the surface in the display. I will add the holes 1 by 1 as too few wont break the siphon and too many will dominate the flow into the pipe.
I am not sure whether this flow will be created/maintained by the Fluval or simply a gravity induced siphon initiated by opening a ball valve, whichever rate of flow is highest I guess is the one I will go with, it would be easier using the Fluval on the sump only anyway.

I'd appreciate feedback and sugestions, I will post photos of the build as I go over the next week or so.
 
I have completed the in-tank part of the return line, coming through the bottom of the tank to a manifold at the surface, directing water down and horizontally:
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I have holes drilled in the top section facing diagonally down, just under the water level to break a back-siphon:
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Here is a photo of overflow box, will construct top portion next missing only intake strainers which are in the mail.
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Feedback and suggestions are welcome, especially about what to put in sump, possibly making it a planted refugium.
 
That tank is looking awesome! I like your return "spraybar".

I have some thoughts on your u-tube design. Right now, you run a risk of draining your entire tank into your sump with a power out. I know you have the air break holes inside your overflow box, but if those get plugged with anything ...... And your tank will drain down to the level of the holes, so your holes need to be much higher than the drawing. Also, I have found that the water level inside an overflow box to vary a bit during use, so it would be difficult to find the right place to put the holes & still maintain siphon during use.

A simpler & more foolproof way to draw water from the bottom of the tank would be a "dam" around the overflow box with slots at the bottom. That way the water would come through the bottom, then go over the top of your overflow box. <Your lowest water level in a power out would then be at the height of your overflow.> An alternative would be u-tubes that ends freely inside your overflow box (not attached to the 1" bulkhead as shown). In this setup, you wouldn't need any air break hole. You would maintain siphon inside your u-tube at all time, even during powerout. You control your tank water level by the height of the standpipes inside your overflow. <Both holes inside the overflows would need standpipes.>
 
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Jsoong is correct about the overflow design. Google reef ready tanks and look at the way the overflows are designed.

Very cool solution though. The Mag 24 is going to produce a lot of flow so be ready for it. I really like the idea of a planted refugium under the tank that will help keep things filtered!
 
I should have requested small holes in the base of the overflow, but I didn't understand all of that when I ordered the tank.

The U pipe will not work as I have drawn, plus it will be pulling through my vent holes inside the box...
Instead, I have moved the holes to outside the box, beneath the surface of the display water, at the same level as the return line vent holes. This way, even if some is pulled through the vent holes, it will be closer to the intake strainers and not as counter productive...
I hadn't considered the holes clogging a very serious problem, couldnt a daily check on them prevent this?

If the U simply wont work and I should use the dual (siphon&emergency) standpipe setup, how can I get flow accross the bottom?
I am not really willing to run any more equipment, like a powerhead, If I extend my spraybar to another + (cross) at the bottom will I be losing too much power from the magdrive24?
 
I'm pretty sure that the Mag24 is going to give you flow through out the tank. You should not have any issues there.
 
....Instead, I have moved the holes to outside the box, beneath the surface of the display water,....

That is a dangerous setup! Having the air break hole outside of your overflow box means water is being sucked into the hole during use .... This is much more likely to plug as anything floating around the top of your tank will tend to be pulled against the hole, completely blocking it.

Personally, I will not sleep well at night with any setup that has a possibility of flood .... even with daily checks. You should design so that flooding is impossible, barring a major catastrophe - like the tank breaking.
 
This is a drawing of my designs of an overflow that draw water from the bottom:

The left setup I have used before. I used an UGF plate on the bottom of the tank, and attached that to a siphon tube into the overflow box. <You can use a strainer if you like.> Water is pulled through the UGF in the bottom & into the overflow. The tank water level is set by the standpipe (red) height (minimum level). If the siphon fails, or can't keep up with the return pump, then water level will rise & go over your overflow box (maximum tank level). There is no risk of a flood as long as the standpipes can handle the flow.

The right side is an alternative setup. This is similar to an air trap baffle in a sump. In the tank, you would have a mesh covering the gap at the bottom of the baffle to prevent loss of critters into your sump. The water level is set by your overflow box height, again no risk of flood. <And if the gap is plugged, water will rise & spill over the top of the baffle into your overflow ... still no flood.>
 

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I certainly don’t want a flood so if holes clog easily then I will have to go with 2 standpipes in overflow box.

jsoong: I don't understand how the siphon is created/maintained in the U in the drawing on the left...
If it is too complicated to construct something around the box then I will have to rely on enough flow across the bottom to have suspended waste go overtop overflow box...

ziggy: Turtles make a lot more waste than fish and I can't do a gravel wash every day...
So the flow, built as is, will reach all corners and prevent buildup in gravel?
Do you think the spraybar I've constructed is adequate or should it bend another 45* down and end in another cross-piece...
I designed it to not face directly down as to not blast the gravel underneath it with full force of pump
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To prevent a dead area from forming underneath the platform and under the ramp,
the ramp does block the flow, on the left side, from going the entire length of the tank:
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I really believe that you will have enough flow to keep the waste moving. Now that is not to say that you wont have a dead spot hear and there but that is going to happen regardless.

Since you put 4-ways (giving you 3 jets) you could always plumb one of the down to point toward the overflow across the bottom of the tank. I think the best thing for you to do is get things finished up and put some water in there and see what kind of movement you get. I think your design is good and I think it will work. Granted I don't know much of anything about turtle care but from where I sit I think it will work for you.
 
OK, I have begun to fill...

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Have the water as high as I am comfortable without overflow and sump ready,
Waterpump and strainers come tomorrow, will get as far as I can go tonight.

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For now, overflows will have bulkheads with strainers, not sure if I want to do a durso or stockman or that other one jsoong mentioned (1 siphon and 1 emergency?)
Any advice on a 2 intake overflow box?


Also, my sump plan is to have the pipes submerged to prevent noise and splash, with:
  • 1 layer of foam and 1 of floss kept in place by eggcrate,
  • I'd like to have the Fluval, full of carbon, intake under the floss/foam and outflow into the fuge area of the sump,
  • in the space between the baffles I will have bags of bio media
  • eventually, have a heavily planted fuge
Good plan for the sump?
 
OK, progressing on undertank plumbing, though I might have a problem with my bulkhead.

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The other 1.5 (return line) got stuck too, but I was able to finish screwing it with padded vice grips.

This one is done, wont go farther, wont come back out.
Seeing the pink teflon tape makes me nervous about the seal, though I think most of it is in the thread...

Should I go ahead and hope for no leak or wait for another bulkhead?
 
Tough call. I've had bulkheads that leaked and were tightened down all the way and I have one right now that looks like yours and is doing just fine. If you put enough tape on the threads you should be ok.
 
ok, so far bulkhead and thread seal seem watertight

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have built portion of outflow pipes underneath, with ball valves to close for whatever maintenance in future

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expecting package with waterpump and strainers any minute now...
constructing rest of undertank setup...
 
The bulkheads look good. My philosophy is always to test all contingencies before finalizing any setup. I would leave it a few days & make sure there is not a HINT of leakage. <Also, extend the bulkheads with short pipes (temporary) so you can fill up the overflow more. Sometime a connection that won't leak with an inch of water pressure (like yours now) will leak with a few inches of depth .... >

As for the siphon in my drawing, you create the siphon by inserting a small tube up to the highest point of the U-tube & suck out all the air. Since both ends of the U tube is under water under all circumstances, no air can get back into the tube, so a permanent siphon is established. As long as there is good flow in the siphon, small bubbles that gets into the siphon get flushed out & not a problem. At 700 gph in my 1" siphon, I've never have a siphon break from air accumulation .... although most people with siphon setups will check at least weekly & remove any accumulating air by sucking out the air with the small tube, or usually, a small bubble that is stuck to the side by friction can be dislodged & flushed out with a bit of shaking. <If you have improperly sized siphon & inadequate flow, air can accumulate. People have resorted to using a small venturi pump to suck out the air constantly - eg in some of the "wier" type overflow. I am always leary on relying on some mechanical device that can break when you can set up a simple "never fail" system based on physics.>

Thoughts on 1 Durso vs. 2 pipe setup - A single Durso is supposed to handle around 1000 ghp. Since you have 2400 ghp going, it might be difficult to get a true Durso going. <You can try by increasing the driving pressure - but if your water level ends up goes over the top of the Tee, you end up with a full siphon system rather than a Durso ... in which case an emergency is prudent.>
 
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Thx for the warnings, but I have spent the day installing the plumbing...

  • My sump is an acrylic 65g, and was too tall for my planned plumbing, luckily I found a fabricated piece of PVC at home depot that brings the horizontal pipe back up easily
  • The intakes combine into a 2" pipe that will deliver under the sump waterline
  • I took your advice and T'ed the return line with a ball valve in case I want to decrease the flow back into tank
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The bulkheads are fine, though when working on the plumbing, if I was pushing up too hard some water started to leak, it stops when I stop.

On the return line, however, the PVC is rigid vertically from pump to bulkhead, and I think there might be a small leak down that pipe, this isn't so bad because it is trickling into the sump, though water under the glass of the display concerns me...
I can't tell if the wet spot is growning:

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...but now I have a photo to check against

Hoping to fill the sump through the overflow in 30 min or so, start the pump and see what happens...
 
The MagDrive24 is loud, maybe dealbreaking loud...:(

My return pipe doesnt break the siphon until the water has fallen 2 inches, I need to drill more holes higher or construct a new one, the flow doesnt seem to be that strong out of each 'jet' either, also leading to new design...

Any ideas?
 
Since your return line is so low in the tank I would drill a hole above the water line. I do this on my return lines so the siphon is broken as soon as the pump is shut off.

The Mag24 really needs 1.5 -2" plumbing on it for maximum flow. I see that you have several connections which constrict and then open back up that may have something to do with your output. I have found that a union attached to the pump and then as much straight pipe as you can get away with and avoiding the connections is the best way to plumb. Everytime you use a connector the ID (inside diameter) is reduced and that causes the pump to loose it's pressure. I have a MAG36 that will pump water straight up 18' if I use 2" pipe.
 
Also, I used a 1" strainer for the intake of the pump, in addition to the one that came with it, I think this is hampering flow...

What about the noise? As it is this is too much, is there any way to muffle it?
 
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