Cycling with fish in due to some poor advice.

[Cirith]

Question about using prime/ api master test for freshwater. Still trying to get my tank cycled with my fish in it, and was doing some research last night. I saw a video where I guy put a few drops of prime into a very dark nitrite reading and it instantly went to 0 nitrites. Am I possibly getting nitrites and not seeing them because I dose my tank with prime & stability daily? Parameters have been, 40 gallon breeder at 79-80 degrees Fahrenheit, .25-.75 ammonia, 0 nitrite, 0 nitrates, 7.8-8 ph. I’ve been doing water changes to keep the ammonia below 1 for the fish even though I’m priming it daily. Tanks been up and running since 12/30/18. Feb 8th I had to break down my larger hob filter and clean it due to a corydora somehow getting into it and died causing a big ammonia spike. I’ve been doing stability since the filter cleaning. Also added some tetra safe start plus and old filter media from Petco a couple times. Trying to speed it up. Tanks stocked with 7 corydora, 5 zebra danios, 1 veil angle, 1 rainbow shark, 1 pictus cat. All seem happy and eat well when I do decide to feed them. (Keeping feeding to a minimum)

As of now only using prime, flourish, and stability. FYI

 

[BBradbury]

Hello Cir...

You don't need to use anything but the standard water treatment during a fish in cycle. I use Seachem's "Safe" and nothing else. You have fish in the tank, so take advantage of them. You need three to four small to medium sized fish for every 10 gallons of water. Just feed the fish a little every day or two and test the water daily for traces of ammonia and nitrite. If you have a positive test for either, remove and replace one-quarter of the tank water, no more. This small water change will keep the fish safe and still grow the bacteria needed to maintain the tank. Just test every day and change the water when needed. In a month or so, you'll have several daily tests with no trace of ammonia or nitrite. The tank is cycled. Then, change half the water weekly to maintain good water conditions for as long as the tank is up and running.

Pretty easy,

B

 

[kphilly2017]

I agree with the above statement. Don’t mess with nature, it already knows what it’s doing. I understand your situation is difficult, and you have a good conscious for the fish. I would do like was advise. No need to dose chemicals unless it’s an emergency. Just keep on those water changes. The cycle will catch up before you know it. Microbes reproduce at not only twice the rate in numbers, but also twice the rate in time. Everything is there for them to set up and be successful. I understand the worry for the fish, and I wish the fish in cycle method would completely go obsolete for all aquarium keepers. It’s much more beneficial and efficient to does ammonia to a system with just pure ammonia from the store. Much easier to control and adapt to without worrying about burning fish gills to a crisp. In this situation, less is more. Stay testing, change the water whenever you detect ammonia, and don’t worry to much and try to combat it with chemicals. The water changes will become a chore, but eventually they will slow down significantly.

Good on you for reaching it, means your learning! Good luck, I know things will work out for you!

 

[Delapool]

I did find this in seachem support - seems to contradict the video you saw? Seachem support searching might find more and generally pretty correct.

I would only dose the exact amount of prime needed. Dosing more may slow the cycle down (tenuous though but few threads have suggested it).

Were you getting any nitrite or nitrate reading before the filter clean?

https://www.seachem.com/support/for...cussion/1930-prime-and-reading-nitrite-levels

 

[kphilly2017]

I did find this in seachem support - seems to contradict the video you saw? Seachem support searching might find more and generally pretty correct.

I would only dose the exact amount of prime needed. Dosing more may slow the cycle down (tenuous though but few threads have suggested it).

Were you getting any nitrite or nitrate reading before the filter clean?

https://www.seachem.com/support/for...cussion/1930-prime-and-reading-nitrite-levels

Did you happen to find anything in your searches related to the binder in the Seachem Prime? Because from reading what they advertise the product to do, it does not eliminate Ammonia. It actually creates it, but makes it non-toxic. I think people have a misinterpretation on what this product actually does. Says even though it is non-toxic, it is still useable by the beneficial bacteria.

 

[Cirith]

Thanks guys I’ll do the water changes & only use prime when I add the new water. On the bottle it says to add for the volume of the tank when adding directly to it. So just under a cap I’ll use.

 

[Cirith]

I’ve found so much stuff while researching that just complete contradicts everything I research. I’m goin to stick to what keeps coming back from you guys/gals that have done it.

 

[Autumnsky]

Prime changes the ammonia to ammonium (NH4) if I remember the article I read, which is also able to be used and changes to Nitrite.

Furthering your cycle progress.

When you did the big clean from the Cory death, if you used untreated tap water to wash it out, you basically started over. Because all (or most) the good started bacteria in the filter pads would have been killed by the Chlorine/Chloramines in the water.

 

[kphilly2017]

Prime changes the ammonia to ammonium (NH4) if I remember the article I read, which is also able to be used and changes to Nitrite.

Furthering your cycle progress.

When you did the big clean from the Cory death, if you used untreated tap water to wash it out, you basically started over. Because all (or most) the good started bacteria in the filter pads would have been killed by the Chlorine/Chloramines in the water.

So it creates a cation. Basically adds protons to it. This has me pretty curious, haha.

 

[King Fisher]

I second Autumnsky, prime turns ammonia into ammonium. I believe the API test kit will not differentiate between ammonia and ammonium. So you might test your tank water a few days after you last added prime and don't add prime within those 3 days.

 

[Cirith]

Prime changes the ammonia to ammonium (NH4) if I remember the article I read, which is also able to be used and changes to Nitrite.

Furthering your cycle progress.

When you did the big clean from the Cory death, if you used untreated tap water to wash it out, you basically started over. Because all (or most) the good started bacteria in the filter pads would have been killed by the Chlorine/Chloramines in the water.

No tap water to clean it. I rinsed it in tank water put it back. Continued getting a larger spike after a water change. So I got rid of the filter pad all together. Then replaced all media with sponges and biomax.

 

[kphilly2017]

I agree with both statements, and see how the death and washing with tap water can be problematic. However, I still do not find how reducing Ammonia to Ammonium makes it useful or furthers a cycle. The only benefit I am seeing here, is possibly a "non-toxic cycle." Because Ammonia is already useful to nitrifying bacteria. The name implies exactly what they are doing. They are nitrifying the ammonia to nitrites. This can be obtained for free (other than the cost of a pure ammonia source) by the natural environment.

The reason I am stating all of this, is to see if someone can maybe enlighten me further. I just don't see how purchasing these items can be more beneficial than utilizing what is already free. I keep finding how these products can be more complicated than needed, which of course can happen by user error. They all seem like they occur additional costs by having to buy the products in order to keep supplementing. But I do understand the reasoning for it, because it all starts by how the tap water is dechlorinated. So if pure water is ever an option, that is what I would go with. I have just never had these problems when doing a fishless cycle off of RO/DI water, with a pure ammonia source. Also, I apologize if it seems I am deviating from the original topic! I can't control my curiosity sometimes! Haha

 

[Cirith]

Lol no worries. I’m here for all the info I can get. It’s my understanding that ammonium is still a good source for nitrifying bacteria. I was dosing in order to make it safer for the fish. I have no idea if it slows the cycle though.

 

[Cirith]

Food source* not good source

 

[Cirith]

With my levels and stock amount I’ll be adding prime daily with the water changes anyway. So hopefully it doesn’t slow it to much

 

[Cirith]

Haven’t got a chance to check it today but I’m sure it’s creeping towards a 1ppm as we speak. Going to test and do a water change after work more than likely

 

[Cirith]

Also to the statement above I’m not worried about free or costly. I don’t like that I made the mistake of stocking the tank to early. I just want the fish to be as ok as possible while I try and fix my mistakes.

 

[King Fisher]

I agree with both statements, and see how the death and washing with tap water can be problematic. However, I still do not find how reducing Ammonia to Ammonium makes it useful or furthers a cycle. The only benefit I am seeing here, is possibly a "non-toxic cycle." Because Ammonia is already useful to nitrifying bacteria. The name implies exactly what they are doing. They are nitrifying the ammonia to nitrites. This can be obtained for free (other than the cost of a pure ammonia source) by the natural environment.

The reason I am stating all of this, is to see if someone can maybe enlighten me further. I just don't see how purchasing these items can be more beneficial than utilizing what is already free. I keep finding how these products can be more complicated than needed, which of course can happen by user error. They all seem like they occur additional costs by having to buy the products in order to keep supplementing. But I do understand the reasoning for it, because it all starts by how the tap water is dechlorinated. So if pure water is ever an option, that is what I would go with. I have just never had these problems when doing a fishless cycle off of RO/DI water, with a pure ammonia source. Also, I apologize if it seems I am deviating from the original topic! I can't control my curiosity sometimes! Haha

I think the reason people use prime is that it breaks down ammonia and nitrite into less toxic forms. While it is true that water changes could do the same thing. But when people are doing fish in cycles, the sudden swings in ammonia and nitrite can happen so as a safe gaurd they use prime. This is just my opinion of course.

As far as RO/DI water, that is a good option. On your larger tanks it becomes either costly to buy from a store in the amounts and frequency needed or requires an RO system set up in the home....few hundred bucks and needs Fairly regular filter changes. You also need to supplement minerals in many cases (there is a small amount of TDS in RO water) and it becomes a tedious task which tap water already supplies.

That's my take on it. There's also dechlorinators out there that just dechlorinates the water.

 

[Autumnsky]

WithOUT fish in the tank doing a normal fishless cycle for barely any money is A-OK, easy peasy. Long time length to get cycled, but little stress, as it will happen over time. No worries about injuring fish.

On the other hand doing a slow, limited number of fish, fish-in cycle (like I only knew how to do in the olden days) is not hard either. But I know testing is important, which I didn't know about in the olden days.

Differing options.

 

[kphilly2017]

Agreed, Autumnsky. There are multiple ways achieve a result. These bacteria also exist in many forms and fashions. Within almost all environments. Which I have come to find through some researching I have been doing for some time. All in my most recent thread I created. The only thing is, I did come across a few articles during my research stating that the commercial sold bacteria, which I assume are bioengineered, have displayed some problems being successful in a few aquariums. They state these bacteria are not as stable when it comes to water parameters. However, I am not sure and I will not confirm that. I haven’t looked into it deep enough.

But in concerns to RO/DI water, my unit does not create TDS. It actually has a TDS meter on it. It is also a 5 stage reactor. As far as the unit price, yeah anything can be expensive brand new. But it shouldn’t be to terribly difficult to source one out and then obtain the filters for it. As far as the cost of the continuation of water production, well other than the initial water input, how often are you planning to change water out? You can overdo it. As far as the minerals or nutrients, in saltwater they are usually supplied or buffered through your salt that you mix with. In freshwater, I’m sure there are products or non-toxic organic buffering products that can be used in freshwater. I don’t need to change my filters for months on end either.

But I do see and understand your point! It can be a costly investment.