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Old 02-02-2012, 12:33 AM   #41
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It is only my opinion. They do have feeders btw but they are treated well. I just know that if I knew the fish was going tpo an usuitable home that the nowner had no intention of upgrading I could not sell it. I was using the zebra danios as an example. I was saying if you get crazy like telling people "Im not selling you these danios because you have a 20 tall and not a 20 long!" I think that we, as hobbyist, need to be willing to make the decisions that the other businesses arent. If we are willing to sell fish to people who are going to keep them in tanks way to small are we any better than the people who sell bettas to people in bowls (Whom many people on here express deep dislike for)? I am not saying that if a person has a tank that seems slightly to small that you shouldnt but if it is horribly to small then are you wanting that to be the way you make money? By selling animals into torture homes? I mean if somebody with cichlids wants to buy a couple rcs even though you tell him they will be eaten then that is their poragative. The animals wont be tortured. Just swallowed quickly with no cruelty.
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Old 02-02-2012, 12:53 AM   #42
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I must agree with GodFan. Using one's best judgement, I think that when animal welfare is involved that it is unscrupulous and unethical to sell an animal, knowing it will be treated cruelly. Of course this is very subjective. But a gut feeling is all I would need to say no to someone. With feeder fish, their death nourishes another wild animal. That animal will kill as quickly as it can. That is as close to a humane death as can be expected. But a slow, miserable death by stunting and poor water conditions is cruel. Just mho. I also would not sell a dog to someone who planned to tie it to a doghouse or keep it in a small pen. I think someone can still have a successful business, and even capitalize on having high standards and ethics.
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Old 02-02-2012, 12:59 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by Donkey Gun
I have two LFS that I go too and both are a different experience. The one closer to me, has an incredible selection of healthy fish, both sw and fw. But the family is a little cold to talk too and their english is not the best to boot. Also, I have had an employee there tell me I could put 12 goldfish in my 29 gallon... But, it IS a 10 minute drive so thats my main one.

If I want to get lost in an LFS and have a great time talkin' shop to the owners, I'll then drive an hour (it's only 15 miles away, but LA traffic is a..) to an LFS where it beats any service Ive ever seen.

I agree with you wawgt, when people complain about the knowledgeable staff, its more likely not an LFS, but a Petco or PetPlus type store.
Sorry for the off topic question, but what is the name of the store? I live In L.A. And I'm curious lol but again sorry for the off topic question
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Old 02-02-2012, 01:56 AM   #44
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It is only my opinion. They do have feeders btw but they are treated well. I just know that if I knew the fish was going tpo an usuitable home that the nowner had no intention of upgrading I could not sell it. I was using the zebra danios as an example. I was saying if you get crazy like telling people "Im not selling you these danios because you have a 20 tall and not a 20 long!" I think that we, as hobbyist, need to be willing to make the decisions that the other businesses arent. If we are willing to sell fish to people who are going to keep them in tanks way to small are we any better than the people who sell bettas to people in bowls (Whom many people on here express deep dislike for)? I am not saying that if a person has a tank that seems slightly to small that you shouldnt but if it is horribly to small then are you wanting that to be the way you make money? By selling animals into torture homes? I mean if somebody with cichlids wants to buy a couple rcs even though you tell him they will be eaten then that is their poragative. The animals wont be tortured. Just swallowed quickly with no cruelty.
Here's an example, look at online sellers. How many of them grill a buyer on their setup? Should I start demanding a photo of a person's setup before selling them some shrimp or fish? I've had people ask me about stocking when buying fish and I give them my honest opinion, even though sometimes it loses a sale. But not everyone wants an opinion, so I'm not going to just push it onto everyone that deals with me.

It's just funny reading the arguments about animal welfare claiming that selling feeder fish is totally ethical when selling someone a betta for a bowl isn't. Assuming that a betta kept in a bowl is being tortured, what makes a slow torture bad but a few minutes of being chased and ripped apart/eaten o.k.?

I have some fish that are live-food only, and trust me, being stalked and then eaten alive isn't exactly at the top of my list of ways to die humanely.

One other way to look at the feeder thing is that 95+% of the fish available in aquaria are not live-food only. And many of the other 5% can be converted with time and effort. Believe it or not, a lot of fish owners enjoy watching their fish hunt and eat. We established that nearly all fish that people keep don't actually need to eat feeders for sustenance and would likely be healthier on a high quality pellet or flake diet, so what was the ethical justification for why pet stores sell feeders again?
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Old 02-02-2012, 02:47 AM   #45
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We have Petco which is infact a chain pet store, not a Fish store. We also have a family run pet shop...they started out years ago as a dedicated fish store, but over the years added birds, rodents, lizards, amphibians, and a few other tank pets, plus dog and cat supplies. Since adding everything, the fish section has been neglected. So, we do not has a descent sopt for fish. Only two sorces, both bad
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Old 02-02-2012, 08:13 AM   #46
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One other way to look at the feeder thing is that 95+% of the fish available in aquaria are not live-food only. And many of the other 5% can be converted with time and effort. Believe it or not, a lot of fish owners enjoy watching their fish hunt and eat. We established that nearly all fish that people keep don't actually need to eat feeders for sustenance and would likely be healthier on a high quality pellet or flake diet, so what was the ethical justification for why pet stores sell feeders again?
Then why sell feeders? A fish store can't survive without selling feeders? It can't be a profitable business if it only caters to people with a basic knowledge of fish keeping, or those who want to be educated?if it promotes stewardship of the animals it sells? I would prefer going to a store like that. I think for too long the pet trade has lacked ethics in favor of the quick buck. Who cares if that iguana is doomed to die from being fed lettuce? He's disposable and there are a million more behind him. Who cares if that puppy will be abandoned when his owners are unsuccessful at house training? I know you can't predict how every person will treat their pet. You can't police everyone. But if no one ever says "no, you can't buy this animal because you are not planning on treating it well. ", nothing will ever change. If you knew someone was buying a puppy to use it in dog fighting, would you sell it to them?
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Old 02-02-2012, 11:29 AM   #47
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Here's an example, look at online sellers. How many of them grill a buyer on their setup? Should I start demanding a photo of a person's setup before selling them some shrimp or fish? I've had people ask me about stocking when buying fish and I give them my honest opinion, even though sometimes it loses a sale. But not everyone wants an opinion, so I'm not going to just push it onto everyone that deals with me.

It's just funny reading the arguments about animal welfare claiming that selling feeder fish is totally ethical when selling someone a betta for a bowl isn't. Assuming that a betta kept in a bowl is being tortured, what makes a slow torture bad but a few minutes of being chased and ripped apart/eaten o.k.?

I have some fish that are live-food only, and trust me, being stalked and then eaten alive isn't exactly at the top of my list of ways to die humanely.

One other way to look at the feeder thing is that 95+% of the fish available in aquaria are not live-food only. And many of the other 5% can be converted with time and effort. Believe it or not, a lot of fish owners enjoy watching their fish hunt and eat. We established that nearly all fish that people keep don't actually need to eat feeders for sustenance and would likely be healthier on a high quality pellet or flake diet, so what was the ethical justification for why pet stores sell feeders again?
Ok I am sorry. I just realized that I was not comunicating myself clearly. I was not saying that every person who comes in must be asked about their setup. I was saying that IF the person just so happens to mention the size tank they are using, or if they ask you if their tank is suitable, and they are not, then you refuse to sell it. I would never, if I owned a pet store, ask customers what size tank they were putting a fish in to be sure it was big enough. The only exception would be if I knew the person was new to the hobby and wasnt sure about the fish they were buying.
I dont think any of us can talk bad about the betta business if we are willing to participate in similar practices with different fish.
As far as feeders go I think that the animal is killed quickly and as painlessly as possible. Im not saying feed a large goldfish to a pirahna. That would be cruel because it cant eat it in one bite. It has to rip it apart first. If I have an oscar or something that likes live food, I would definetly feed it feeders guppies with no problem. They will suck it in their mouth and swallow it. No torture. Do I think it would be fun to watch? Yea! But would I think it was fun if it was torturous? No!
If you really want to go down that road then how do we know that frozen or even flake food is humane? Animal products are in flake food. How do we know those were treated humane?
I do not think grilling customers is right. But if they offer the information then can you sleep at night knowing you sent an animal to be tortured when you knew what you were doing?

P.S. I think the reason most people like to watch a fish eat live food is because of the hunting behavior (that would be my reason) not just the fact that an animal is being killed.
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Old 02-02-2012, 12:41 PM   #48
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Ok I am sorry. I just realized that I was not comunicating myself clearly. I was not saying that every person who comes in must be asked about their setup. I was saying that IF the person just so happens to mention the size tank they are using, or if they ask you if their tank is suitable, and they are not, then you refuse to sell it. I would never, if I owned a pet store, ask customers what size tank they were putting a fish in to be sure it was big enough. The only exception would be if I knew the person was new to the hobby and wasnt sure about the fish they were buying.
I dont think any of us can talk bad about the betta business if we are willing to participate in similar practices with different fish.
As far as feeders go I think that the animal is killed quickly and as painlessly as possible. Im not saying feed a large goldfish to a pirahna. That would be cruel because it cant eat it in one bite. It has to rip it apart first. If I have an oscar or something that likes live food, I would definetly feed it feeders guppies with no problem. They will suck it in their mouth and swallow it. No torture. Do I think it would be fun to watch? Yea! But would I think it was fun if it was torturous? No!
If you really want to go down that road then how do we know that frozen or even flake food is humane? Animal products are in flake food. How do we know those were treated humane?
I do not think grilling customers is right. But if they offer the information then can you sleep at night knowing you sent an animal to be tortured when you knew what you were doing?

P.S. I think the reason most people like to watch a fish eat live food is because of the hunting behavior (that would be my reason) not just the fact that an animal is being killed.
I was actually talking to another member about this subject a while back. Guy I mow for has a goldie in a 5g tank. Now we all know that is wrong, but I was asking this other member about if I did the right thing by not jumping in and saying "You should get a 20g for it!". The other member said yes, and elaborated. He said how would YOU like it if somebody ran around in your business. Critiquing everything you do and telling you how it should have been done differently. He said the best thing to do would be to recommend the person get a bigger tank or say that the fish would appreciate it. However it is not my or anybody else's place to start preaching about how it is wrong. You can't stop this customer from getting a certain fish if they want it bad enough. You can educate them, but if you don't sell them the fish guess what? They will just run to the next LFS a few miles down the road and buy the same unsuitable fish anyway. I personally could sleep at night, because I would have done all I could do.
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Old 02-02-2012, 01:55 PM   #49
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I was actually talking to another member about this subject a while back. Guy I mow for has a goldie in a 5g tank. Now we all know that is wrong, but I was asking this other member about if I did the right thing by not jumping in and saying "You should get a 20g for it!". The other member said yes, and elaborated. He said how would YOU like it if somebody ran around in your business. Critiquing everything you do and telling you how it should have been done differently. He said the best thing to do would be to recommend the person get a bigger tank or say that the fish would appreciate it. However it is not my or anybody else's place to start preaching about how it is wrong. You can't stop this customer from getting a certain fish if they want it bad enough. You can educate them, but if you don't sell them the fish guess what? They will just run to the next LFS a few miles down the road and buy the same unsuitable fish anyway. I personally could sleep at night, because I would have done all I could do.
I know they will probably buy from somewhere else but it wouldnt be from me. I would not have been the one who supported it. Also if somebody brings a water sample from their tank and have ammonia in the water but still want to buy fish for that tank I would refuse. Now think about this before you say that makes no sense from a business standpoint: If you tell them you wont sell it becuase it will die anyway is that better than refusing to refund their money when they bring it back in a week and say it died? They are going to get mad either way so why not just save the fish?
I am definetly not saying you should get preachy either.

You know thinking about this reminds me of something else my LFS did. Somebody asked them if a ADF would be ok in a betta tank (unfiltered, unheated, less than one gallon rectangle) and the guy said it would be fine. I lost respect for him for that. Another guy was telling a person that 1 black kuhli loach in a tank would be fine. I stepped in and told the people that you would see them alot more if you had 6. He gave me the death stare. If you are going to sell to homes you know are unsuitable to make sure you dont lose a sale, then why not give advice like this to make sure you dont miss a sale?
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Old 02-02-2012, 03:58 PM   #50
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If you knew someone was buying a puppy to use it in dog fighting, would you sell it to them?
Definetely not! I have had rescues and also bred cats (for 2 years) and never let an animal go without thorough research on the people interested. I lost a load of money, but the animals lives meant more to me than money. I am sure there might be a very small select few pet store owners that honestly do what they can for the betterment of the animals, but honestly, those that do have a the animals livelyhood ahead of money won't stay in business long. Those that are money first, will of course succeed.
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