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Old 02-02-2012, 04:32 PM   #51
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Why do stores sell feeders? Because people want them. And like I said, nearly all fish in aquaria do not need to eat live food, and primarily the feeders are used as a form of entertainment for the owner.

I'm not anti-feeder fish, just trying to clarify some things about it. @ Godfan, I don't know how many feeders you've used but it's not that cut and dried, not every one is eaten quickly and efficiently, and some fish are chased all around the tank before being wounded and sometimes left to suffer and die. If humane were someone's focus, I'd think that they'd be against the practice all together since it's unnecessary for the most part. You have stated that it'd be 'fun to watch', I'm not sure how that would be justified in an ethics argument.

The fighting dogs thing doesn't really apply to this situation. If someone was buying stock from me with the intention of fighting it, or otherwise destroying it, I would object to it and refuse a sale. The focus I've been talking about has been with the particulars, I'm just not going to be nitpicky about someone's setup before I decide to sell them anything. The 3 oscars in a 55gallon thing is a good example. I wouldn't refuse to sell 3 oscars to someone with a 55g, but I would inform them of the eventual need for a much larger tank and likelihood of being forced to split them up as they mature.

I'm also planning to do a fish rescue program in part of the store.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lovin Fish
I am sure there might be a very small select few pet store owners that honestly do what they can for the betterment of the animals, but honestly, those that do have a the animals livelyhood ahead of money won't stay in business long. Those that are money first, will of course succeed.
I think there's a definite balancing act there, but I believe it's possible to do both, otherwise I wouldn't be set on going into this business.
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Old 02-02-2012, 04:53 PM   #52
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I wasn't trying to criticize you Jetajockey. I do realize it's a fine line. We all complain about the big chain stores selling the wrong fish to uninformed people, etc. I just truly believe that our society is ready to move forward when it comes to caring for animals. Most people have Animal Planet tv, most have access to the vast resource of the Internet. There is no excuse for people to get into owning a pet without learning how to properly care for it anymore. I truly believe there is a market for a pet store/fish store that is set up to inform people as they shop. It could be marketed as an ethical, kind place to buy fish. Rather than a place designed to misinform people, that capitalizes on impulse buys. I bet it would get much more repeat business, and happier customers, because their fish didn't die. I know I would shop there.
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Old 02-02-2012, 05:05 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by jetajockey View Post
Why do stores sell feeders? Because people want them. And like I said, nearly all fish in aquaria do not need to eat live food, and primarily the feeders are used as a form of entertainment for the owner.

I'm not anti-feeder fish, just trying to clarify some things about it. @ Godfan, I don't know how many feeders you've used but it's not that cut and dried, not every one is eaten quickly and efficiently, and some fish are chased all around the tank before being wounded and sometimes left to suffer and die. If humane were someone's focus, I'd think that they'd be against the practice all together since it's unnecessary for the most part. You have stated that it'd be 'fun to watch', I'm not sure how that would be justified in an ethics argument.

The fighting dogs thing doesn't really apply to this situation. If someone was buying stock from me with the intention of fighting it, or otherwise destroying it, I would object to it and refuse a sale. The focus I've been talking about has been with the particulars, I'm just not going to be nitpicky about someone's setup before I decide to sell them anything. The 3 oscars in a 55gallon thing is a good example. I wouldn't refuse to sell 3 oscars to someone with a 55g, but I would inform them of the eventual need for a much larger tank and likelihood of being forced to split them up as they mature.

I'm also planning to do a fish rescue program in part of the store.


I think there's a definite balancing act there, but I believe it's possible to do both, otherwise I wouldn't be set on going into this business.
I sure hope you do extremely well! And I totally agree with you about not being "nitpicky". Word would spread you were a pain and pleople would never come into your shop! But, doing what you said in your example with the Oscars and properly informing people about the fish they are choosing to buy, will make you a hot spot if you can hang in there past the rough beginning! People appreciate it when they are given educated advise about something they are putting the heart and money into it. Building trust in your cumstomers is key. It's when they are given wrong information just to make a sale that people become disgruntled and will stop doing business with that spot.

I also agree that dog fighting has nothing to do with fish...the dog fighting caught my eye though because I deal with alot of pit bull rescues and am always on the look out to be sure a potential family does not have a hidden agenda. I saw that, and didn't fully read through the rest of the post. Now I gotta go back and re-read it to see what I have gotten myself into
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Old 02-02-2012, 05:11 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by jetajockey View Post
Why do stores sell feeders? Because people want them. And like I said, nearly all fish in aquaria do not need to eat live food, and primarily the feeders are used as a form of entertainment for the owner.

I'm not anti-feeder fish, just trying to clarify some things about it. @ Godfan, I don't know how many feeders you've used but it's not that cut and dried, not every one is eaten quickly and efficiently, and some fish are chased all around the tank before being wounded and sometimes left to suffer and die. If humane were someone's focus, I'd think that they'd be against the practice all together since it's unnecessary for the most part. You have stated that it'd be 'fun to watch', I'm not sure how that would be justified in an ethics argument.

The fighting dogs thing doesn't really apply to this situation. If someone was buying stock from me with the intention of fighting it, or otherwise destroying it, I would object to it and refuse a sale. The focus I've been talking about has been with the particulars, I'm just not going to be nitpicky about someone's setup before I decide to sell them anything. The 3 oscars in a 55gallon thing is a good example. I wouldn't refuse to sell 3 oscars to someone with a 55g, but I would inform them of the eventual need for a much larger tank and likelihood of being forced to split them up as they mature.

I'm also planning to do a fish rescue program in part of the store.


I think there's a definite balancing act there, but I believe it's possible to do both, otherwise I wouldn't be set on going into this business.
Jetajockey I respect your expierience and advice alot. I generally find myself hoping you will reply to my threads. However in this case I think you are way off. I am not trying to be rude but you sound hypocritical to me. You talk about right treatment of fish and refuse to recomend a fish to me based on the opinion that my tank will be unsuitable because I want to try something a bit new but you are willing to lay that aside when money is on the line. Also if you read my post you can see that I said I didnt expect you to ask about peoples tanks. However if they offer the information up by chance and it is unacceptable then I believe youi should advise and if you know they are not going to remedee the situation (by upgrading later, changing stocking, etc) then refuse the sale.
Also many people believe that feeders are necessary. Its once again an opinion as you have pointed out.
Like I said, I respect our advice and knowledge but in this case I think your priorities are not in order.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hholly View Post
I wasn't trying to criticize you Jetajockey. I do realize it's a fine line. We all complain about the big chain stores selling the wrong fish to uninformed people, etc. I just truly believe that our society is ready to move forward when it comes to caring for animals. Most people have Animal Planet tv, most have access to the vast resource of the Internet. There is no excuse for people to get into owning a pet without learning how to properly care for it anymore. I truly believe there is a market for a pet store/fish store that is set up to inform people as they shop. It could be marketed as an ethical, kind place to buy fish. Rather than a place designed to misinform people, that capitalizes on impulse buys. I bet it would get much more repeat business, and happier customers, because their fish didn't die. I know I would shop there.
I agree that this could do very well if done right. I think more than refusing the sale it is more about how you do it. If you are snotty to the customer then yea they probably wont be back. However if you are polite and kind then they may be back (Im sure youll still lose some customers but I think youll gain some as well.)
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Old 02-02-2012, 05:17 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by Hholly View Post
I wasn't trying to criticize you Jetajockey. I do realize it's a fine line. We all complain about the big chain stores selling the wrong fish to uninformed people, etc. I just truly believe that our society is ready to move forward when it comes to caring for animals. Most people have Animal Planet tv, most have access to the vast resource of the Internet. There is no excuse for people to get into owning a pet without learning how to properly care for it anymore. I truly believe there is a market for a pet store/fish store that is set up to inform people as they shop. It could be marketed as an ethical, kind place to buy fish. Rather than a place designed to misinform people, that capitalizes on impulse buys. I bet it would get much more repeat business, and happier customers, because their fish didn't die. I know I would shop there.
I agree with that, with modern technology I think we already have and will continue to see an evolution in the average person's way of thinking about animals and their care.
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Old 02-02-2012, 05:19 PM   #56
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I have a lfs that has an amazing selection, I can get almost any fish, bulb, fixture, dw and plant, ordered no problem. They also have real aquatic plants. They are always very helpful except on the weekends when they are packed!! Lol
You are so lucky! I wish I had a LFS around here like yours!
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Old 02-02-2012, 05:21 PM   #57
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Exactly! Jeta's talking about informing the customer just not stopping them if they choose to ignore the information. Businesses, including pet and fish stores, need to make a profit to stay afloat. Refusing to sell to customers is bad for business. You need to educate the customer to steer them in the right direction without offending them to have them never return. Some stores do it better than others.
Couldn't be said better!! I tried and FAILED LOL!
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Old 02-02-2012, 05:38 PM   #58
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Jetajockey I respect your expierience and advice alot. I generally find myself hoping you will reply to my threads. However in this case I think you are way off. I am not trying to be rude but you sound hypocritical to me. You talk about right treatment of fish and refuse to recomend a fish to me based on the opinion that my tank will be unsuitable because I want to try something a bit new but you are willing to lay that aside when money is on the line. Also if you read my post you can see that I said I didnt expect you to ask about peoples tanks. However if they offer the information up by chance and it is unacceptable then I believe youi should advise and if you know they are not going to remedee the situation (by upgrading later, changing stocking, etc) then refuse the sale.
Also many people believe that feeders are necessary. Its once again an opinion as you have pointed out.
Like I said, I respect our advice and knowledge but in this case I think your priorities are not in order.

I agree that this could do very well if done right. I think more than refusing the sale it is more about how you do it. If you are snotty to the customer then yea they probably wont be back. However if you are polite and kind then they may be back (Im sure youll still lose some customers but I think youll gain some as well.)
Refusing to recommend a fish and refusing to sell a fish are two totally different things. If you're so sure that jetajockey is wrong, then why don't you just set up your own fish store?

I agree that if an LFS owner refused to sell a certain fish to a customer, they will go out of business quickly. If everybody who went there was refused a fish, they would spread the word and the LFS would get no business.

And GodFan, if you want to talk about somebody being a hypocrit look at your posts. You say that feeder fish are OK, but yet this discussion is about 'ethical treatment'. Like jeta said, feeder fish are not required for any fish in reality. I don't know how many videos you've watched on youtube of feeder fish being put in a cichlid tank, but it isn't pretty. It usually leads to a long drawn out chase and a slow, agonizing death for the poor feeder fish. Only live food I'll ever used is mosquito larvae.
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Old 02-02-2012, 05:46 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by GodFan View Post
Jetajockey I respect your expierience and advice alot. I generally find myself hoping you will reply to my threads. However in this case I think you are way off. I am not trying to be rude but you sound hypocritical to me. You talk about right treatment of fish and refuse to recomend a fish to me based on the opinion that my tank will be unsuitable because I want to try something a bit new but you are willing to lay that aside when money is on the line.
I'm willing to lay what aside? You asked for advice and you got it. If you are referencing the 'self sustaining' tank, what you are trying isn't new, it might be new to you, but it's not a new concept at all. People have been trying for years to figure out the least conditions to keep fish in, hence the creation of betta bowls and other contraptions. If you came into my store and explained your intentions I would tell you the same thing, and no I would not refuse sale to you. I don't think that these self sustaining systems, at least in that situation, are a particularly healthy environment for a fish long term, but I give you as a person, enough credit to be able to absorb some information on the subject and be able to act accordingly.

Quote:
Also if you read my post you can see that I said I didnt expect you to ask about peoples tanks. However if they offer the information up by chance and it is unacceptable then I believe youi should advise and if you know they are not going to remedee the situation (by upgrading later, changing stocking, etc) then refuse the sale.
That's not advising someone, it's commanding someone to conform. I like to think that I have a pretty good idea of what works and what doesn't, but my way isn't the only way.
Quote:
Also many people believe that feeders are necessary. Its once again an opinion as you have pointed out.
Actually I claim this as a fact rather than just an opinion. I could go over the list of common aquaria fish and whether they are live-food only, but I think most people can come to the conclusion on their own.
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Old 02-02-2012, 05:48 PM   #60
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You are so lucky! I wish I had a LFS around here like yours!
Amen to that, we all need those. I have a LFS here that has a good selection of fish and the owners are knowledgeable and pretty friendly, but the prices are sometimes hard for me to justify. It really adds up when you are getting 4-6 schoolers at 8-10 bucks each lol.
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