Defending the LFS

[GodFan]

It is only my opinion. They do have feeders btw but they are treated well. I just know that if I knew the fish was going tpo an usuitable home that the nowner had no intention of upgrading I could not sell it. I was using the zebra danios as an example. I was saying if you get crazy like telling people "Im not selling you these danios because you have a 20 tall and not a 20 long!" I think that we, as hobbyist, need to be willing to make the decisions that the other businesses arent. If we are willing to sell fish to people who are going to keep them in tanks way to small are we any better than the people who sell bettas to people in bowls (Whom many people on here express deep dislike for)? I am not saying that if a person has a tank that seems slightly to small that you shouldnt but if it is horribly to small then are you wanting that to be the way you make money? By selling animals into torture homes? I mean if somebody with cichlids wants to buy a couple rcs even though you tell him they will be eaten then that is their poragative. The animals wont be tortured. Just swallowed quickly with no cruelty.

 

[Hholly]

I must agree with GodFan. Using one's best judgement, I think that when animal welfare is involved that it is unscrupulous and unethical to sell an animal, knowing it will be treated cruelly. Of course this is very subjective. But a gut feeling is all I would need to say no to someone. With feeder fish, their death nourishes another wild animal. That animal will kill as quickly as it can. That is as close to a humane death as can be expected. But a slow, miserable death by stunting and poor water conditions is cruel. Just mho. I also would not sell a dog to someone who planned to tie it to a doghouse or keep it in a small pen. I think someone can still have a successful business, and even capitalize on having high standards and ethics.

 

[Austin.b]

I have two LFS that I go too and both are a different experience. The one closer to me, has an incredible selection of healthy fish, both sw and fw. But the family is a little cold to talk too and their english is not the best to boot. Also, I have had an employee there tell me I could put 12 goldfish in my 29 gallon... But, it IS a 10 minute drive so thats my main one.

If I want to get lost in an LFS and have a great time talkin' shop to the owners, I'll then drive an hour (it's only 15 miles away, but LA traffic is a..) to an LFS where it beats any service Ive ever seen.

I agree with you wawgt, when people complain about the knowledgeable staff, its more likely not an LFS, but a Petco or PetPlus type store.

Sorry for the off topic question, but what is the name of the store? I live In L.A. And I'm curious lol but again sorry for the off topic question

 

[jetajockey]

It is only my opinion. They do have feeders btw but they are treated well. I just know that if I knew the fish was going tpo an usuitable home that the nowner had no intention of upgrading I could not sell it. I was using the zebra danios as an example. I was saying if you get crazy like telling people "Im not selling you these danios because you have a 20 tall and not a 20 long!" I think that we, as hobbyist, need to be willing to make the decisions that the other businesses arent. If we are willing to sell fish to people who are going to keep them in tanks way to small are we any better than the people who sell bettas to people in bowls (Whom many people on here express deep dislike for)? I am not saying that if a person has a tank that seems slightly to small that you shouldnt but if it is horribly to small then are you wanting that to be the way you make money? By selling animals into torture homes? I mean if somebody with cichlids wants to buy a couple rcs even though you tell him they will be eaten then that is their poragative. The animals wont be tortured. Just swallowed quickly with no cruelty.

Here's an example, look at online sellers. How many of them grill a buyer on their setup? Should I start demanding a photo of a person's setup before selling them some shrimp or fish? I've had people ask me about stocking when buying fish and I give them my honest opinion, even though sometimes it loses a sale. But not everyone wants an opinion, so I'm not going to just push it onto everyone that deals with me.

It's just funny reading the arguments about animal welfare claiming that selling feeder fish is totally ethical when selling someone a betta for a bowl isn't. Assuming that a betta kept in a bowl is being tortured, what makes a slow torture bad but a few minutes of being chased and ripped apart/eaten o.k.?

I have some fish that are live-food only, and trust me, being stalked and then eaten alive isn't exactly at the top of my list of ways to die humanely.

One other way to look at the feeder thing is that 95+% of the fish available in aquaria are not live-food only. And many of the other 5% can be converted with time and effort. Believe it or not, a lot of fish owners enjoy watching their fish hunt and eat. We established that nearly all fish that people keep don't actually need to eat feeders for sustenance and would likely be healthier on a high quality pellet or flake diet, so what was the ethical justification for why pet stores sell feeders again?

 

[Lovin Fish]

We have Petco which is infact a chain pet store, not a Fish store. We also have a family run pet shop...they started out years ago as a dedicated fish store, but over the years added birds, rodents, lizards, amphibians, and a few other tank pets, plus dog and cat supplies. Since adding everything, the fish section has been neglected. So, we do not has a descent sopt for fish. Only two sorces, both bad

 

[Hholly]

One other way to look at the feeder thing is that 95+% of the fish available in aquaria are not live-food only. And many of the other 5% can be converted with time and effort. Believe it or not, a lot of fish owners enjoy watching their fish hunt and eat. We established that nearly all fish that people keep don't actually need to eat feeders for sustenance and would likely be healthier on a high quality pellet or flake diet, so what was the ethical justification for why pet stores sell feeders again?

Then why sell feeders? A fish store can't survive without selling feeders? It can't be a profitable business if it only caters to people with a basic knowledge of fish keeping, or those who want to be educated?if it promotes stewardship of the animals it sells? I would prefer going to a store like that. I think for too long the pet trade has lacked ethics in favor of the quick buck. Who cares if that iguana is doomed to die from being fed lettuce? He's disposable and there are a million more behind him. Who cares if that puppy will be abandoned when his owners are unsuccessful at house training? I know you can't predict how every person will treat their pet. You can't police everyone. But if no one ever says "no, you can't buy this animal because you are not planning on treating it well. ", nothing will ever change. If you knew someone was buying a puppy to use it in dog fighting, would you sell it to them?

 

[GodFan]

Here's an example, look at online sellers. How many of them grill a buyer on their setup? Should I start demanding a photo of a person's setup before selling them some shrimp or fish? I've had people ask me about stocking when buying fish and I give them my honest opinion, even though sometimes it loses a sale. But not everyone wants an opinion, so I'm not going to just push it onto everyone that deals with me.

It's just funny reading the arguments about animal welfare claiming that selling feeder fish is totally ethical when selling someone a betta for a bowl isn't. Assuming that a betta kept in a bowl is being tortured, what makes a slow torture bad but a few minutes of being chased and ripped apart/eaten o.k.?

I have some fish that are live-food only, and trust me, being stalked and then eaten alive isn't exactly at the top of my list of ways to die humanely.

One other way to look at the feeder thing is that 95+% of the fish available in aquaria are not live-food only. And many of the other 5% can be converted with time and effort. Believe it or not, a lot of fish owners enjoy watching their fish hunt and eat. We established that nearly all fish that people keep don't actually need to eat feeders for sustenance and would likely be healthier on a high quality pellet or flake diet, so what was the ethical justification for why pet stores sell feeders again?

Ok I am sorry. I just realized that I was not comunicating myself clearly. I was not saying that every person who comes in must be asked about their setup. I was saying that IF the person just so happens to mention the size tank they are using, or if they ask you if their tank is suitable, and they are not, then you refuse to sell it. I would never, if I owned a pet store, ask customers what size tank they were putting a fish in to be sure it was big enough. The only exception would be if I knew the person was new to the hobby and wasnt sure about the fish they were buying.
I dont think any of us can talk bad about the betta business if we are willing to participate in similar practices with different fish.
As far as feeders go I think that the animal is killed quickly and as painlessly as possible. Im not saying feed a large goldfish to a pirahna. That would be cruel because it cant eat it in one bite. It has to rip it apart first. If I have an oscar or something that likes live food, I would definetly feed it feeders guppies with no problem. They will suck it in their mouth and swallow it. No torture. Do I think it would be fun to watch? Yea! But would I think it was fun if it was torturous? No!
If you really want to go down that road then how do we know that frozen or even flake food is humane? Animal products are in flake food. How do we know those were treated humane?
I do not think grilling customers is right. But if they offer the information then can you sleep at night knowing you sent an animal to be tortured when you knew what you were doing?

P.S. I think the reason most people like to watch a fish eat live food is because of the hunting behavior (that would be my reason) not just the fact that an animal is being killed.

 

[adadkins1]

Ok I am sorry. I just realized that I was not comunicating myself clearly. I was not saying that every person who comes in must be asked about their setup. I was saying that IF the person just so happens to mention the size tank they are using, or if they ask you if their tank is suitable, and they are not, then you refuse to sell it. I would never, if I owned a pet store, ask customers what size tank they were putting a fish in to be sure it was big enough. The only exception would be if I knew the person was new to the hobby and wasnt sure about the fish they were buying.
I dont think any of us can talk bad about the betta business if we are willing to participate in similar practices with different fish.
As far as feeders go I think that the animal is killed quickly and as painlessly as possible. Im not saying feed a large goldfish to a pirahna. That would be cruel because it cant eat it in one bite. It has to rip it apart first. If I have an oscar or something that likes live food, I would definetly feed it feeders guppies with no problem. They will suck it in their mouth and swallow it. No torture. Do I think it would be fun to watch? Yea! But would I think it was fun if it was torturous? No!
If you really want to go down that road then how do we know that frozen or even flake food is humane? Animal products are in flake food. How do we know those were treated humane?
I do not think grilling customers is right. But if they offer the information then can you sleep at night knowing you sent an animal to be tortured when you knew what you were doing?

P.S. I think the reason most people like to watch a fish eat live food is because of the hunting behavior (that would be my reason) not just the fact that an animal is being killed.

I was actually talking to another member about this subject a while back. Guy I mow for has a goldie in a 5g tank. Now we all know that is wrong, but I was asking this other member about if I did the right thing by not jumping in and saying "You should get a 20g for it!". The other member said yes, and elaborated. He said how would YOU like it if somebody ran around in your business. Critiquing everything you do and telling you how it should have been done differently. He said the best thing to do would be to recommend the person get a bigger tank or say that the fish would appreciate it. However it is not my or anybody else's place to start preaching about how it is wrong. You can't stop this customer from getting a certain fish if they want it bad enough. You can educate them, but if you don't sell them the fish guess what? They will just run to the next LFS a few miles down the road and buy the same unsuitable fish anyway. I personally could sleep at night, because I would have done all I could do.

 

[GodFan]

I was actually talking to another member about this subject a while back. Guy I mow for has a goldie in a 5g tank. Now we all know that is wrong, but I was asking this other member about if I did the right thing by not jumping in and saying "You should get a 20g for it!". The other member said yes, and elaborated. He said how would YOU like it if somebody ran around in your business. Critiquing everything you do and telling you how it should have been done differently. He said the best thing to do would be to recommend the person get a bigger tank or say that the fish would appreciate it. However it is not my or anybody else's place to start preaching about how it is wrong. You can't stop this customer from getting a certain fish if they want it bad enough. You can educate them, but if you don't sell them the fish guess what? They will just run to the next LFS a few miles down the road and buy the same unsuitable fish anyway. I personally could sleep at night, because I would have done all I could do.

I know they will probably buy from somewhere else but it wouldnt be from me. I would not have been the one who supported it. Also if somebody brings a water sample from their tank and have ammonia in the water but still want to buy fish for that tank I would refuse. Now think about this before you say that makes no sense from a business standpoint: If you tell them you wont sell it becuase it will die anyway is that better than refusing to refund their money when they bring it back in a week and say it died? They are going to get mad either way so why not just save the fish?
I am definetly not saying you should get preachy either.

You know thinking about this reminds me of something else my LFS did. Somebody asked them if a ADF would be ok in a betta tank (unfiltered, unheated, less than one gallon rectangle) and the guy said it would be fine. I lost respect for him for that. Another guy was telling a person that 1 black kuhli loach in a tank would be fine. I stepped in and told the people that you would see them alot more if you had 6. He gave me the death stare. If you are going to sell to homes you know are unsuitable to make sure you dont lose a sale, then why not give advice like this to make sure you dont miss a sale?

 

[Lovin Fish]

If you knew someone was buying a puppy to use it in dog fighting, would you sell it to them?

Definetely not! I have had rescues and also bred cats (for 2 years) and never let an animal go without thorough research on the people interested. I lost a load of money, but the animals lives meant more to me than money. I am sure there might be a very small select few pet store owners that honestly do what they can for the betterment of the animals, but honestly, those that do have a the animals livelyhood ahead of money won't stay in business long. Those that are money first, will of course succeed.

 

[jetajockey]

Why do stores sell feeders? Because people want them. And like I said, nearly all fish in aquaria do not need to eat live food, and primarily the feeders are used as a form of entertainment for the owner.

I'm not anti-feeder fish, just trying to clarify some things about it. @ Godfan, I don't know how many feeders you've used but it's not that cut and dried, not every one is eaten quickly and efficiently, and some fish are chased all around the tank before being wounded and sometimes left to suffer and die. If humane were someone's focus, I'd think that they'd be against the practice all together since it's unnecessary for the most part. You have stated that it'd be 'fun to watch', I'm not sure how that would be justified in an ethics argument.

The fighting dogs thing doesn't really apply to this situation. If someone was buying stock from me with the intention of fighting it, or otherwise destroying it, I would object to it and refuse a sale. The focus I've been talking about has been with the particulars, I'm just not going to be nitpicky about someone's setup before I decide to sell them anything. The 3 oscars in a 55gallon thing is a good example. I wouldn't refuse to sell 3 oscars to someone with a 55g, but I would inform them of the eventual need for a much larger tank and likelihood of being forced to split them up as they mature.

I'm also planning to do a fish rescue program in part of the store.

I am sure there might be a very small select few pet store owners that honestly do what they can for the betterment of the animals, but honestly, those that do have a the animals livelyhood ahead of money won't stay in business long. Those that are money first, will of course succeed.

I think there's a definite balancing act there, but I believe it's possible to do both, otherwise I wouldn't be set on going into this business.

 

[Hholly]

I wasn't trying to criticize you Jetajockey. I do realize it's a fine line. We all complain about the big chain stores selling the wrong fish to uninformed people, etc. I just truly believe that our society is ready to move forward when it comes to caring for animals. Most people have Animal Planet tv, most have access to the vast resource of the Internet. There is no excuse for people to get into owning a pet without learning how to properly care for it anymore. I truly believe there is a market for a pet store/fish store that is set up to inform people as they shop. It could be marketed as an ethical, kind place to buy fish. Rather than a place designed to misinform people, that capitalizes on impulse buys. I bet it would get much more repeat business, and happier customers, because their fish didn't die. I know I would shop there.

 

[Lovin Fish]

Why do stores sell feeders? Because people want them. And like I said, nearly all fish in aquaria do not need to eat live food, and primarily the feeders are used as a form of entertainment for the owner.

I'm not anti-feeder fish, just trying to clarify some things about it. @ Godfan, I don't know how many feeders you've used but it's not that cut and dried, not every one is eaten quickly and efficiently, and some fish are chased all around the tank before being wounded and sometimes left to suffer and die. If humane were someone's focus, I'd think that they'd be against the practice all together since it's unnecessary for the most part. You have stated that it'd be 'fun to watch', I'm not sure how that would be justified in an ethics argument.

The fighting dogs thing doesn't really apply to this situation. If someone was buying stock from me with the intention of fighting it, or otherwise destroying it, I would object to it and refuse a sale. The focus I've been talking about has been with the particulars, I'm just not going to be nitpicky about someone's setup before I decide to sell them anything. The 3 oscars in a 55gallon thing is a good example. I wouldn't refuse to sell 3 oscars to someone with a 55g, but I would inform them of the eventual need for a much larger tank and likelihood of being forced to split them up as they mature.

I'm also planning to do a fish rescue program in part of the store.


I think there's a definite balancing act there, but I believe it's possible to do both, otherwise I wouldn't be set on going into this business.

I sure hope you do extremely well! And I totally agree with you about not being "nitpicky". Word would spread you were a pain and pleople would never come into your shop! But, doing what you said in your example with the Oscars and properly informing people about the fish they are choosing to buy, will make you a hot spot if you can hang in there past the rough beginning! People appreciate it when they are given educated advise about something they are putting the heart and money into it. Building trust in your cumstomers is key. It's when they are given wrong information just to make a sale that people become disgruntled and will stop doing business with that spot.

I also agree that dog fighting has nothing to do with fish...the dog fighting caught my eye though because I deal with alot of pit bull rescues and am always on the look out to be sure a potential family does not have a hidden agenda. I saw that, and didn't fully read through the rest of the post. Now I gotta go back and re-read it to see what I have gotten myself into

 

[GodFan]

Why do stores sell feeders? Because people want them. And like I said, nearly all fish in aquaria do not need to eat live food, and primarily the feeders are used as a form of entertainment for the owner.

I'm not anti-feeder fish, just trying to clarify some things about it. @ Godfan, I don't know how many feeders you've used but it's not that cut and dried, not every one is eaten quickly and efficiently, and some fish are chased all around the tank before being wounded and sometimes left to suffer and die. If humane were someone's focus, I'd think that they'd be against the practice all together since it's unnecessary for the most part. You have stated that it'd be 'fun to watch', I'm not sure how that would be justified in an ethics argument.

The fighting dogs thing doesn't really apply to this situation. If someone was buying stock from me with the intention of fighting it, or otherwise destroying it, I would object to it and refuse a sale. The focus I've been talking about has been with the particulars, I'm just not going to be nitpicky about someone's setup before I decide to sell them anything. The 3 oscars in a 55gallon thing is a good example. I wouldn't refuse to sell 3 oscars to someone with a 55g, but I would inform them of the eventual need for a much larger tank and likelihood of being forced to split them up as they mature.

I'm also planning to do a fish rescue program in part of the store.


I think there's a definite balancing act there, but I believe it's possible to do both, otherwise I wouldn't be set on going into this business.

Jetajockey I respect your expierience and advice alot. I generally find myself hoping you will reply to my threads. However in this case I think you are way off. I am not trying to be rude but you sound hypocritical to me. You talk about right treatment of fish and refuse to recomend a fish to me based on the opinion that my tank will be unsuitable because I want to try something a bit new but you are willing to lay that aside when money is on the line. Also if you read my post you can see that I said I didnt expect you to ask about peoples tanks. However if they offer the information up by chance and it is unacceptable then I believe youi should advise and if you know they are not going to remedee the situation (by upgrading later, changing stocking, etc) then refuse the sale.
Also many people believe that feeders are necessary. Its once again an opinion as you have pointed out.
Like I said, I respect our advice and knowledge but in this case I think your priorities are not in order.

I wasn't trying to criticize you Jetajockey. I do realize it's a fine line. We all complain about the big chain stores selling the wrong fish to uninformed people, etc. I just truly believe that our society is ready to move forward when it comes to caring for animals. Most people have Animal Planet tv, most have access to the vast resource of the Internet. There is no excuse for people to get into owning a pet without learning how to properly care for it anymore. I truly believe there is a market for a pet store/fish store that is set up to inform people as they shop. It could be marketed as an ethical, kind place to buy fish. Rather than a place designed to misinform people, that capitalizes on impulse buys. I bet it would get much more repeat business, and happier customers, because their fish didn't die. I know I would shop there.

I agree that this could do very well if done right. I think more than refusing the sale it is more about how you do it. If you are snotty to the customer then yea they probably wont be back. However if you are polite and kind then they may be back (Im sure youll still lose some customers but I think youll gain some as well.)

 

[jetajockey]

I wasn't trying to criticize you Jetajockey. I do realize it's a fine line. We all complain about the big chain stores selling the wrong fish to uninformed people, etc. I just truly believe that our society is ready to move forward when it comes to caring for animals. Most people have Animal Planet tv, most have access to the vast resource of the Internet. There is no excuse for people to get into owning a pet without learning how to properly care for it anymore. I truly believe there is a market for a pet store/fish store that is set up to inform people as they shop. It could be marketed as an ethical, kind place to buy fish. Rather than a place designed to misinform people, that capitalizes on impulse buys. I bet it would get much more repeat business, and happier customers, because their fish didn't die. I know I would shop there.

I agree with that, with modern technology I think we already have and will continue to see an evolution in the average person's way of thinking about animals and their care.

 

[Lovin Fish]

I have a lfs that has an amazing selection, I can get almost any fish, bulb, fixture, dw and plant, ordered no problem. They also have real aquatic plants. They are always very helpful except on the weekends when they are packed!! Lol

You are so lucky! I wish I had a LFS around here like yours!

 

[Lovin Fish]

Exactly! Jeta's talking about informing the customer just not stopping them if they choose to ignore the information. Businesses, including pet and fish stores, need to make a profit to stay afloat. Refusing to sell to customers is bad for business. You need to educate the customer to steer them in the right direction without offending them to have them never return. Some stores do it better than others.

Couldn't be said better!! I tried and FAILED LOL!

 

[adadkins1]

Jetajockey I respect your expierience and advice alot. I generally find myself hoping you will reply to my threads. However in this case I think you are way off. I am not trying to be rude but you sound hypocritical to me. You talk about right treatment of fish and refuse to recomend a fish to me based on the opinion that my tank will be unsuitable because I want to try something a bit new but you are willing to lay that aside when money is on the line. Also if you read my post you can see that I said I didnt expect you to ask about peoples tanks. However if they offer the information up by chance and it is unacceptable then I believe youi should advise and if you know they are not going to remedee the situation (by upgrading later, changing stocking, etc) then refuse the sale.
Also many people believe that feeders are necessary. Its once again an opinion as you have pointed out.
Like I said, I respect our advice and knowledge but in this case I think your priorities are not in order.

I agree that this could do very well if done right. I think more than refusing the sale it is more about how you do it. If you are snotty to the customer then yea they probably wont be back. However if you are polite and kind then they may be back (Im sure youll still lose some customers but I think youll gain some as well.)

Refusing to recommend a fish and refusing to sell a fish are two totally different things. If you're so sure that jetajockey is wrong, then why don't you just set up your own fish store?

I agree that if an LFS owner refused to sell a certain fish to a customer, they will go out of business quickly. If everybody who went there was refused a fish, they would spread the word and the LFS would get no business.

And GodFan, if you want to talk about somebody being a hypocrit look at your posts. You say that feeder fish are OK, but yet this discussion is about 'ethical treatment'. Like jeta said, feeder fish are not required for any fish in reality. I don't know how many videos you've watched on youtube of feeder fish being put in a cichlid tank, but it isn't pretty. It usually leads to a long drawn out chase and a slow, agonizing death for the poor feeder fish. Only live food I'll ever used is mosquito larvae.

 

[jetajockey]

Jetajockey I respect your expierience and advice alot. I generally find myself hoping you will reply to my threads. However in this case I think you are way off. I am not trying to be rude but you sound hypocritical to me. You talk about right treatment of fish and refuse to recomend a fish to me based on the opinion that my tank will be unsuitable because I want to try something a bit new but you are willing to lay that aside when money is on the line.

I'm willing to lay what aside? You asked for advice and you got it. If you are referencing the 'self sustaining' tank, what you are trying isn't new, it might be new to you, but it's not a new concept at all. People have been trying for years to figure out the least conditions to keep fish in, hence the creation of betta bowls and other contraptions. If you came into my store and explained your intentions I would tell you the same thing, and no I would not refuse sale to you. I don't think that these self sustaining systems, at least in that situation, are a particularly healthy environment for a fish long term, but I give you as a person, enough credit to be able to absorb some information on the subject and be able to act accordingly.

Also if you read my post you can see that I said I didnt expect you to ask about peoples tanks. However if they offer the information up by chance and it is unacceptable then I believe youi should advise and if you know they are not going to remedee the situation (by upgrading later, changing stocking, etc) then refuse the sale.

That's not advising someone, it's commanding someone to conform. I like to think that I have a pretty good idea of what works and what doesn't, but my way isn't the only way.

Also many people believe that feeders are necessary. Its once again an opinion as you have pointed out.

Actually I claim this as a fact rather than just an opinion. I could go over the list of common aquaria fish and whether they are live-food only, but I think most people can come to the conclusion on their own.

 

[jetajockey]

You are so lucky! I wish I had a LFS around here like yours!

Amen to that, we all need those. I have a LFS here that has a good selection of fish and the owners are knowledgeable and pretty friendly, but the prices are sometimes hard for me to justify. It really adds up when you are getting 4-6 schoolers at 8-10 bucks each lol.