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Old 02-05-2005, 04:46 PM   #91
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Congrats, keep it up, I know quitting is hard

I've never said that hotdogs were worse, you've misinterpreted me on at least 2 occasions so far.

I was simply stating that hotdogs contain chemicals which are known to cause cancer, Never did I imply it was on the same level (nor comparable), my point was, where does the line get drawn? what is acceptable risk with kids? who defines that? why should they have the right? Are they even Parents?

to get back to the point, Who defines what can be done where, why do they have the right to deny others right to make choices? are they even participants in the places they will affect with thier decisions?

At what point are our (all of our) freedoms restricted to a rule book we are given at birth.. since everyone has already dictated what you can or cannot do.
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Old 02-05-2005, 04:51 PM   #92
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Billsgate - smart move, best of luck to you.

I've never tried smoking, so i have no idea how hard it can be to try and give it up. But would it be fair to say that the majority of smokers know its bad for them, know that all there clothes etc stink and know that if they were to quit there are a vast aray of healthy benifits like, being able to taste food properly, becoming fitter etc?

if so, add that along with the fact that there is obviously growing pressure for smoking to be banned then surely there is enough encouragement for smokers to quit?

i was thinking about this earlier... and perhaps i've been looking at it the wrong way round. perhaps it's not down to the government to ban smoking, but for us, the people who believe smoking should be banned, to make more noise. Start petitions and give them to landlords, restaurant owners etc explaining to them how much we, the public, would like this. I dont know, it might work, i guess its possible, but i do feel it's needed on a much larger scale...

i wonder if cigarettes and tobacco had only been discovered today, do you think they'd be legal?
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Old 02-05-2005, 04:56 PM   #93
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Quote:
vast aray of healthy benifits like, being able to taste food properly
You haven't tried my wifes cooking, this is a survival technique.
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Old 02-05-2005, 05:02 PM   #94
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"why do they have the right to deny others right to make choices?" - i dnt think anybody is denying anybody the right to make choices. what were saying is, we dont want our air polluted with smokers smoke. it is actually the smoker who is causing the problems, by smoking around us, he is taking away our choice to breath clean air, we have no choice about that. apart from to breathe somewhere else. And i still cant see how, when we are not causing any damage to the clean air, we need to suffer or become inconvenienced so to protect our health...

EDIT: You haven't tried my wifes cooking, this is a survival technique LMAO!! haha nice one in that case i probably dnt blame you!
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Old 02-05-2005, 05:11 PM   #95
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Chris, the owner of the establishment is denied the right to make a choice, and if I say I don't want my air polluted by commuters would you appreaciate having to walk everywhere because I was offended?
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Old 02-05-2005, 05:22 PM   #96
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i dont own a car. I decided before i left high school that i wasnt going to learn to drive because i didnt want to be part of the problem. (i even tried to talk my rents into getting solar power roof tiles not too long ago)

there has to be some sort of comprimise, i guess it just has to come down to public pressure in the end...
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Old 02-05-2005, 06:52 PM   #97
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Sorry, wizz, but your argument is less than clear. Are you saying that your right to smoke outweighs my right to not have smoke in the air I have to breathe? What gives you more rights than I have?

Are you suggesting that it is OK to have kids inhale second hand smoke because you have the "right" to blow it in their faces? You keep comparing smoke to hot dogs and cold air in the winter. What's your point in bringing those into the argument?

Are you consistent? Are you in favor of a person's right to smoke marijuana is his own home? To drive at whatever speed he wants on the highway? To play loud music in a train car? All of these would follow from your reasoning with respect to smoking, wouldn't they?

Sometimes laws are needed to protect the public at large from people who put their own "rights" ahead of good manners, common courtesy and consideration for others.
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SG 1.024, temp 79.5, pH 8.4

Livestock I added:

1 skunk cleaner. 12 hermits: red, scarlet, blue. 15 or so assorted snails. Discosomas, Ricordia, Rhodactis mushroom corals, chaetomorpha (sump), 1 feather duster, Montipora digitata, Montipora capricornis, Montipora hispids. assorted zoos, Xenia, Kenya tree coral, green Sinularia, green star polyps, branching hammer coral, bubble coral, Devil's hand leather. Yellow chromis, purple firefish.

Hitchhikers: the usual suspects :crabs, bristles, urchin, mantis shrimp (now in exile in mantis tank)

List of possible/likely newcomers:

Feather duster. PJ cardinal, Bangghai cardinal, Firefish goby, Clownfish, Neon goby, Yellow watchman goby, Orchid dottyback. Various corals.
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Old 02-05-2005, 07:05 PM   #98
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As far as Wizards argument...

Again...How is you rights any greater than mine?

53,000 Non-smokers a year die because of second-hand smoke...

Don't believe me? Check out www.standonline.org

I have bad asthma and smoke can basically stop me from breathing.

I support the ban on smoking in public places...and I believe it will not be long until tobaccoo companies are gone anyhow.

Wizard...the crap about hotdogs...

Are 53,000 people dieing from being around people who eat hot dogs?

No.

I'm forced to be around cigarette smoke...I do not pick to be around it.
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Old 02-05-2005, 08:25 PM   #99
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Billsgate, glad to hear the good news.
I was asked to "take a walk" so to speak as I may have been to invested in this argument. I tried to be polite and civil but there are certain things that I am quite passionate about. I was told I was narrowminded because in my comments there was no gray area. I'm sorry anyone feels that way about anything I've said, but to me there is no gray area with this topic. Smoking is bad. I used the word wrong previously but people are offended when told something they do is wrong, all they hear is that I'm saying they're wrong and it bothers them. That's life in my opinion.
I am going to try my hardest to stay out of the topic though as it is quite frustrating to me. I will say that no one arguing for the sake of smoking has made any sense at all. People start comparing things. Most of the things they've been compared to aren't even comparable. Most(keep in mind I'm saying most) of the things compared have been things that CAN be dangerous(like guns). Not things that absolutely are. Smoking is harmful to people no matter what dose, no matter who it is, and no matter how it's used. And there are no positive uses or side affects of smoking. they're just bad. But everytime I try to make this kind of point people(I'm guessing mostly smokers) start arguing with me. You bring up people's rights, and stuff like hotdogs... some of those things aren't even comparable and even if they were or are, that still doesn't change the fact that smoking is bad. If this was a debate over keeping bettas in 8 ounces of water, and you were telling someone how wrong they were, and believe me, if they were arguing you would tell them flat out that they were wrong, the defense I've gotten from some people here would be like that person saying if keeping bettas in such a bowl is wrong than pet stores shouldn't sell 1 inch oscars to people with ten gallon tanks... That's all I've heard from a lot of people so far.
I think I"ve mentioned it before but people don't want to take responsability for there own actions. People want to feel like they are good people and dont do anything wrong. They don't want to accept that maybe something in their life isn't ok, especially if someone else is telling them that. For those that do smoke, Hey, I still love ya and don't think any less of you... but smoking is still a bad thing for everyone not just some. You can get mad at me for saying so, but I'm sitting here quite calmly typing this only because I care so much about all of you. If we're going to argue over whether or not there should be a ban, or whether or not the government should have a part in that, that's fine. But as far as smoking goes, please, stop trying so hard to justify it by comparing it to other things. It just doesn't make any sense. Smoking in a car with anyone, not just kids, is bad and endangerment. It's actually the same if not worse than giving the kid their own cigarette. Yes, I do believe that should be illegal no matter what kind of penalty there is.
As far as food and stuff goes, that's another completely different topic, has nothing to do with smoking but I will say that I personally believe the government should try harder to keep food healthy and safe for all people. People as a whole are to dumb and trusting to make some of those decisions for themselves. You wave something that looks good, smells good, and tastes good in front of someone chances are they're going to eat it without thinking for a second what's in it. Yes, I do believe that people should be more responsible, but they're not, in general.
People compared smoking to owning guns... WAY different things. guns have the potential to be harmful. Smoking is and always will be harmful to the user and anyone nearby.
Want to compare it to pollution from cars and such, that's fine, those are indeed bad things but not quite the same as smoking. There are plus sides to most of those other things, there's no positive with smoking. cars have a lot of uses. smoking has none. I'm only saying this because other people brought it up... they're not on the same level. Sure, in a perfect world I'd love to do without any technology whatsoever. But of course we're far from that. Someone mentioned abortion. Yes, I totally agree that it is a horrible practice but it still doesn't justify smoking. You can't say because something else is wrong but legal than it's ok if I do this...
People here have used statistics and comparisons amongst other tactics only to avoid the issue of smoking. It is bad, it is harmful. That's all I have to say. That's all I've ever tried to say... You can disagree with me if you want, just don't expect me to listen if you've got anything to say besides something about cigarettes.
I'm sorry if anything I've said has sounded harsh or anyone was offended. But I do believe that I've conducted myself calmly and as politely as possible. I do not believe I've been any more rude or aggressive than anyone else here... eh, what else can I say... Oh yeah, I hope this wasn't tooooooooooooooooo long.
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Old 02-05-2005, 08:33 PM   #100
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It was just long enough. You are absolutely correct. Nice worm, oops I mean work!
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30 gal standard 55 lbs LR, 60 lb live sand, 10 gal sump/refugium. Urchin skimmer, mag7 pump, 3 x 96W PC combination 10,000K/actinic bulb, 2 blue LED moonlights
SG 1.024, temp 79.5, pH 8.4

Livestock I added:

1 skunk cleaner. 12 hermits: red, scarlet, blue. 15 or so assorted snails. Discosomas, Ricordia, Rhodactis mushroom corals, chaetomorpha (sump), 1 feather duster, Montipora digitata, Montipora capricornis, Montipora hispids. assorted zoos, Xenia, Kenya tree coral, green Sinularia, green star polyps, branching hammer coral, bubble coral, Devil's hand leather. Yellow chromis, purple firefish.

Hitchhikers: the usual suspects :crabs, bristles, urchin, mantis shrimp (now in exile in mantis tank)

List of possible/likely newcomers:

Feather duster. PJ cardinal, Bangghai cardinal, Firefish goby, Clownfish, Neon goby, Yellow watchman goby, Orchid dottyback. Various corals.
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