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Old 02-02-2005, 11:14 PM   #31
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My father smoked 2-3 packs a day all through my childhood and into my teens, and I certainly did not suffer as far as acedemic achievement is concerned....but the question remains....could I have been just that much better if I had not been exposed to second-hand smoke?
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Old 02-02-2005, 11:36 PM   #32
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"there is a simple answer to every problem... and its wrong"
This applies to smoking, and every other harmful substance, weather smoked, drunken, snorted, or inhaled second hand. In a perfect world these things would never have existed. Unfortunately this is not a perfect world. It is my opinion the best way to deal with this is not only to stop those who are smoking now, but to stop the next generation, and the next generation, until the industry becomes so small it dies. As for toxic emissions, they should be illegal, and I'm sure that in the extreme case fishyfanatic mentioned it was. The regulation on tobacco is long overdue, there are no laws on how many packs a person can smoke a day, and there are no governmentally funded programs to help smokers quit, and there are no laws dealing with operating machinery under the influence of tobacco. Although that last example might be extreme, it shows the difference between how alalcohal buse is dealt with, and how tobacco abuse is dealt with. Furthermore, there is no quick fix, even if tobacco was banned today, it would end up like the prohibition of alcohal, it could never be effective.
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Old 02-03-2005, 12:27 AM   #33
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It is my opinion the best way to deal with this is not only to stop those who are smoking now, but to stop the next generation, and the next generation, until the industry becomes so small it dies
Won't happen, this is a free market economy and people are generally fed up with multi million dollar lawsuits. The ones that benefit are the trial lawyer and they are becoming public enemy number one. (thank goodness)
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The regulation on tobacco is long overdue, there are no laws on how many packs a person can smoke a day, and there are no governmentally funded programs to help smokers quit, and there are no laws dealing with operating machinery under the influence of tobacco
So you are proposing socialist (or worse) means? Sure sound like it...nice. even the communists didn't put these type of restrictions on people. Just ask my wife, she lived under their rule for 16 years.
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even if tobacco was banned today, it would end up like the prohibition of alcohal, it could never be effective
yup.
I really hope you are kidding. 8O
BTW, I don't smoke any more, quit a while ago.....oh ya, it was my choice and no government regulation would have made that difficult decision for me..
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Old 02-03-2005, 12:27 AM   #34
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If i own any type of store, restraunt, bar whatever it's my buisness i hate the government for telling me what to do with it, and if people do not want to shop there because of that that is their right too.

Be weary whenever the government wants to censor or take a right away from you because where one right falss two more are placed in the hot seat, and no matter how insignificant that right may seem the right to smoke which may or may not be directly represented in our constistution its only serves to give the government power over the people instead of giveing people power over the government

BTW not a smoker never tried it dont want if i even thought about it anyway id be slapped all across the room by the people i know.
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Old 02-03-2005, 01:58 AM   #35
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For anyone not sick of me, thanks, and there's still time
I'll say again, smoking is bad. It seems most of the people that argue for smoking are smokers and are just defending themselves. There's no justifying something that is bad. Bad is bad. Now I know, that's a horrible thing to say right...? I don't think so. Sure, I agree, we all need rights, we need freedom. Those are things this country was founded on, amongst other things(such as morals and faith)... And I also belive in personal responsability and I also agree that people are not being responsible for themsleves as much as they should.
I don't know why my mind is drawing a blank on who it is, but there's a member here with an avatar that says "I own you" with a picture of what I assume to be "uncle sam". We're not as free as we think we are here. The government already runs things and in many ways dictates what we can and cannot do. But that's sort of another topic. With the issue of smoking... I'm not sure that's something that should be left to the public to decide whether it's right or wrong. Especially if it is proven(which it is) to be harmful to both comsumers and people around them. Like I said before, the only reason it is still legal is because of all the money the government makes from the tobacco industry. That's all there is to it. Well, that and there are all those people out there that actually think it's ok and not bad... Please don't take me wrong, I'm not trying to condemn anyone here. We all do things that are wrong, but that does not make any of those things right.
Ok, I'm trying to stay on track here. Quite plainly, smoking is hazardous to ones health. There's no two sides to it. When products and drugs are introduced to the public they are screened. The FDA or someone "tries"(and I mean tries ) to keep unsafe products off of the market. Some of the things that get banned and pulled off the market are less harmful than cigarettes. And like mentioned over and over, cigarettes harm more than just the people using them. Just because a large portion of society accepts smoking and the government says it's ok for whatever reasons($$$) does not make it ok. It's killing people. I personally don't know how someone could work for the tobacco companies knowing what it might do to someone.
You can all get mad at me and say I'm ranting if you want... but I haven't anymore than anyone saying smoking is ok.
It may be hard to tell, but I am quite shy and reserved. But there are things in life that I am really passionate about. I can't keep silent. I care about you all, I hope you know that.
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Old 02-03-2005, 06:53 AM   #36
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Quick off topic point the government made a big mistake by saying "you're allowed x amounts of units before you are over the limit to drive... what!? alcohol effects everybody differently! You should be allowed NO alcohol before getting in your car. That takes out the grey area, and stops arguements like, i asked for a single... but the bar man gave me a double by mistake - yes sombody i know used that! My mum never drinks, she could easily be under the limit and totally unable to drive, but leagally able to!

I'm all up for freedom, and human rights, and especially sustainable living. but smoking should not be allowed in public places. I should be able to walk into any pub bar or restaurant or even down the street and have the right to breathe fresh air, just as the employees of such places. As i first mentioned a major chain pub has announced that it will be banning smoking, in may i think it was... so maybe one pub in a town will be non smoking... it should be the other way around. I guess a comprimise would be to ban smoking in all public places, then grant a licence to establishments who want to have smoking. The licence should only be granted to places if they meet to certain criteria, like sufficient air conditioning / extractor fans etc. If that was the case, then i would be able to make a choice, smoky pub? non smoky pub? but know that if i chose a smoky pub that i wasnt putting my health at too much risk.

Also people seem to be forgetting the fact that fags get hot, one of my mums friends little girl almost lost her eye, because somebody wasnt being especially careful with their cigarette. You can have items conviscated if they are classed as a 'dangerous weapon' errr... she nearly lost her eye? granted kids will be kids, and have accidents, but still.

And as for the health risks on children... it's a health risk to adults, so kids don't really stand much chance. yea the human body is an amazing thing, it can evolve build up imune systems, but only a small percentage of children will have the healthy bodys to be able to do this, and even then i doubt how effective it would be.

At the end of the day, when people smoke in a public atmosphere, its not just themselves they are damaging. I'm not harming myself buy sitting next to a guy drinking a pint, im not harming myself even sitting next to a guy who's snorting cocain, but sitting next to a guy who is smoking a fag or a joint is harming me.

Also i know one person who has died through smoking, two people who have ephicemia (sp?) one of which is my aunty, who is only using something like 25% of her total lung volume, yep one lung has completely collapsed, she has been in and out of intensive care, her husband and two children have been told three times, that the doctors dont expect her to live to the morning. She is not ever going to get better, her lungs can not repair themselves. She cant get out of her chair without panting, and walking up the stairs is like climing mount everest on rollerskates...

So i do wonder why so many ppl smoke? Hollywood? Because it's avaliable? Because they want to try it, then get addicted? I wonder how many people smoke dope on a regular basis, and how many people would smoke it if it was leagal, and how many ppl would smoke if tabaco was illeagal...
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Old 02-03-2005, 08:54 AM   #37
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Pick your poison, everything you have is bad for you ( at least according to a recent study), That BigMac, yup, not good for you, it can infact kill you some day (but thank god you can't have a smoke while yer sliding the grease ball down), perhaps we should ban McD's from selling them, after all, it's your choice to go in there where they are, and really we have to protect you from making your own choices.

In todays world we spend so much time pointing fingers that we forget the simple things, we get sick, it's in our nature, we breath more pollutants sitting in rushhour traffic then there are in a restaraunt, but we don't see them banning cars from the highway. (instead they push 7.2 litre V8 SUV's down our throats as being a great thing)

I'm not defending smokers (nor SUV commuters), but I wanted to say, there comes a time where people have to make a decision, do they want to go in there because there are smokers? The OWNER of that restaraunt made the choice of allowing smokers in there, if you don't like the enviroment, then pick a different place, it's obvious by the choice the owner made, he wasn't interested in your business..
but I guess the people who pass laws don't feel people are responsible enough to make thier own decisions. (I know booze impairs your abilities, so I don't drink.. )

my thoughts on it this early in the morning for what it's worth.
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Old 02-03-2005, 09:52 AM   #38
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This is an OPINION board, right? OK, here goes...

The way I see it, people have as much of a "right" to smoke indoors as I do to light an incense stick. People who argue this "right" are the ultimate in self-centered, inconsiderate people, in my humble opinion. Don't forget that people WORK in bars and restaurants and have to breathe smoke CONTINUOUSLY. If people want to blow smoke into the air, let them go outside.

BTW, it seems to me that people would realize that they have an addiction and a SERIOUS problem if they need to stand huddled outside in the freezing cold in order to inhale smoke.

Sorry, but I have no patience with smoking. It is a ridiculously stupid risk to one's own health, and quite possibly to those around him. I lost a family member to lung cancer, and it's a horrible death. The fact that ANYONE would smoke in the presence of children ought to be handled as child endangerment. People who smoke cigarettes in a car or in a house with kids might as well offer them one.

Whew! Glad I got that off my chest. Time to test my water chemistry.
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SG 1.024, temp 79.5, pH 8.4

Livestock I added:

1 skunk cleaner. 12 hermits: red, scarlet, blue. 15 or so assorted snails. Discosomas, Ricordia, Rhodactis mushroom corals, chaetomorpha (sump), 1 feather duster, Montipora digitata, Montipora capricornis, Montipora hispids. assorted zoos, Xenia, Kenya tree coral, green Sinularia, green star polyps, branching hammer coral, bubble coral, Devil's hand leather. Yellow chromis, purple firefish.

Hitchhikers: the usual suspects :crabs, bristles, urchin, mantis shrimp (now in exile in mantis tank)

List of possible/likely newcomers:

Feather duster. PJ cardinal, Bangghai cardinal, Firefish goby, Clownfish, Neon goby, Yellow watchman goby, Orchid dottyback. Various corals.
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Old 02-03-2005, 04:03 PM   #39
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An interesting opinion on it.

Did I mention that I already had and beat Cancer, and it had nothing to do with smoking (Actually I was told not to bother quitting as the stress was worse for me)? and up until that time (25 Years old) I was in perfect health, I didn't have to go to a doctor for 9 years.

My point is, people like to blame (point fingers) at things that are bad for you and say "That causes this" for reasons unknown, when in reality, regardless of how a life is lived it can be ended just as quickly with little or no intervention or "cause". Not to justify it, it is a bad habit, but one could say drinking is just as bad, but they encourage that in bars and provide parking lots, And if you think that it doesn't affect others, then perhaps you can explain that to my kids that were screaming while I tried avoiding a drunk that came head on with me and almost eliminated 3 generations of my family, ( I avoided him, wrote off my van, but saved 5 lives in mine and 5 in the other car, including the guy that blew 4 times over the limit, but hey, at least his habit doesn't cause .... ).

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Don't forget that people WORK in bars and restaurants and have to breathe smoke CONTINUOUSLY. If people want to blow smoke into the air, let them go outside.
Again, choice, life is full of them, Employees can ask the manager to change the restaraunt to non-smoking.

Glad you got that off your chest
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Old 02-03-2005, 04:58 PM   #40
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Not to justify it, it is a bad habit, but one could say drinking is just as bad, but they encourage that in bars and provide parking lots, And if you think that it doesn't affect others, then perhaps you can explain that to my kids that were screaming while I tried avoiding a drunk that came head on with me
Not relevant. Drunk driving IS against the law. So is adding alcohol to someone's drink without their knowledge, which is akin to what smokers are doing to OUR air when they smoke. What on this earth could possibly make anyone think that they have a "right" to blow smoke into the air that others have to breathe? To me, it is the ULTIMATE in self-centeredness. I, a non-smoker, have to alter MY behavior because SMOKERS choose to blow smoke into OUR shared air? Amazing concept.

No one is infringing on smokers "rights" if smokers are required to go outside to smoke. It is simply false to suggest otherwise. Many smokers don't want the "right to smoke" - they want the "right to smoke" wherever and whenever they feel like it- without regard for others.

As I said, I really have no patience with this (so I'll quit for now), but to me, a defense of smoking by smokers is simply a rationalization of their inability to end their drug addiction. And I say this as a former smoker myself. There is help available for smokers. EVERY SINGLE member of my family quit smoking after my uncle died of lung cancer. Some of them had smoked since their navy days in WWII.

They all quit in memory of my uncle and so that they could provide two things to their children:

1) an example of doing the right thing even when difficult, and
2) a more healthy living environment free from all numerous KNOWN toxins and carcinogens in cigarette smoke.
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30 gal standard 55 lbs LR, 60 lb live sand, 10 gal sump/refugium. Urchin skimmer, mag7 pump, 3 x 96W PC combination 10,000K/actinic bulb, 2 blue LED moonlights
SG 1.024, temp 79.5, pH 8.4

Livestock I added:

1 skunk cleaner. 12 hermits: red, scarlet, blue. 15 or so assorted snails. Discosomas, Ricordia, Rhodactis mushroom corals, chaetomorpha (sump), 1 feather duster, Montipora digitata, Montipora capricornis, Montipora hispids. assorted zoos, Xenia, Kenya tree coral, green Sinularia, green star polyps, branching hammer coral, bubble coral, Devil's hand leather. Yellow chromis, purple firefish.

Hitchhikers: the usual suspects :crabs, bristles, urchin, mantis shrimp (now in exile in mantis tank)

List of possible/likely newcomers:

Feather duster. PJ cardinal, Bangghai cardinal, Firefish goby, Clownfish, Neon goby, Yellow watchman goby, Orchid dottyback. Various corals.
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