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Old 02-03-2005, 05:04 PM   #41
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Thanks for posting that. By giving smokers the "right" to smoke wherever and whenever they are infringing upon the non smokers rights... I agree with all you just said and very much appreciate you sharing it.
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Old 02-03-2005, 05:13 PM   #42
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I'll say again, smoking is bad. It seems most of the people that argue for smoking are smokers and are just defending themselves. There's no justifying something that is bad. Bad is bad. Now I know, that's a horrible thing to say right...? I don't think so. Sure, I agree, we all need rights, we need freedom. Those are things this country was founded on, amongst other things(such as morals and faith)... And I also belive in personal responsability and I also agree that people are not being responsible for themsleves as much as they should.

Most of what humans do is bad. If we all lived in bubbles eating lettuce we'd probably all live a lot longer. As a matter of fact, human beings are physically comparable to herbivores, yet we eat meat when we really shouldn't.
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Old 02-03-2005, 05:21 PM   #43
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I'm not saying that drinking and driving is the problem, I'm saying that drinking is the problem. How many households get turned inside out by booze, how many wives, husbands and children get beaten because of booze. Yet this is still "Promoted" in public (Without concern for public wellbeing)

I was merely pointing out that if you are to police what is "good" for people, then perhaps I would listen if people were "responsible" (which is most clearly not the case when booze is involved, hence my example), and if I knew there was a drunk (or anything that can cause me harm) on that road, would I have been there? no. so if a non-smoker knows there are smokers inside, then should they go in? no.

we are taking responsibility and shoving it from one person to another.

I think I will stop there for the same reason you stated
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Old 02-03-2005, 05:30 PM   #44
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Not to justify it, it is a bad habit, but one could say drinking is just as bad, but they encourage that in bars and provide parking lots, And if you think that it doesn't affect others, then perhaps you can explain that to my kids that were screaming while I tried avoiding a drunk that came head on with me
Not relevant. Drunk driving IS against the law. So is adding alcohol to someone's drink without their knowledge, which is akin to what smokers are doing to OUR air when they smoke. What on this earth could possibly make anyone think that they have a "right" to blow smoke into the air that others have to breathe? To me, it is the ULTIMATE in self-centeredness. I, a non-smoker, have to alter MY behavior because SMOKERS choose to blow smoke into OUR shared air? Amazing concept.

No one is infringing on smokers "rights" if smokers are required to go outside to smoke. It is simply false to suggest otherwise. Many smokers don't want the "right to smoke" - they want the "right to smoke" wherever and whenever they feel like it- without regard for others.

As I said, I really have no patience with this (so I'll quit for now), but to me, a defense of smoking by smokers is simply a rationalization of their inability to end their drug addiction. And I say this as a former smoker myself. There is help available for smokers. EVERY SINGLE member of my family quit smoking after my uncle died of lung cancer. Some of them had smoked since their navy days in WWII.

They all quit in memory of my uncle and so that they could provide two things to their children:

1) an example of doing the right thing even when difficult, and
2) a more healthy living environment free from all numerous KNOWN toxins and carcinogens in cigarette smoke.


I know, the nerve of some people. On my walk to work this morning I had to walk between two buses that were belching deisel smoke into the air - a known carcinogen. Near my building, I could smell the chocolate from the bulk chocolate candymaker across the river. I'm sure that offends someone, though not me. In the summer, people ride motorcycles with VERY loud exhaust (and legally I might add). Very irritating and damaging to my hearing, by the way.

As a matter of fact, nearly everyone I saw today impeded on my space in some way.

In my opinion, smokers aren't right and non-smokers aren't right - they just have to share the same space on occasion. There's nothing that makes non-smokers inherently "right" that they can exact legislation to support themselves.



That's why it should be in the restaurant owner's hands. They can have it however they want it and their customers can choose where they dine as they please. If it's a divided restaurant and non-smokers feel they're being infringed upon - they don't have to come back to that restaurant.

I know restaurant owners in Chicago vehemently oppose a smoking ban. Not because they don't want non-smoking restaurants, but it's their businesses and they want to be in charge of it's success.

How can anyone disagree with that logic?
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And the men who spurred us on sit in judgment of all wrong, they decide and the shotgun sings the song.



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Euphyllia, Alveopora, Pachyclauvularia (Metallic Green and Daisy), Frogspawn, Torch, Gold Nepthea, Kenya Tree, Galaxea, Pulsing Xenia, various leather (umbrella, toadstool, fingers, devil fingers, lettuce)
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Old 02-03-2005, 05:36 PM   #45
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this is a old wound that will take a long time to heel.

As a smoker: Smokers have the right to smoke but NOT when it can be deemed dangerouse to others (non-smokers). i.e closed spaces, resterants, bars, or any other closed building where both share the air.

I'll take it outside, not a problem. I won't smoke a whole lot if it's cold or wet tho, i'll do without. one question tho, what happens when smokers aren't allowed to smoke outside either. Is it true this has happend in california somewhere already? would this be considered taking it too far and forceing a non-smokers values on smokers.
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Old 02-03-2005, 05:41 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by Wizzard~Of~Ozz
if a non-smoker knows there are smokers inside, then should they go in? no.
This is the crux of the argument to me. If there are smokers in a restaurant, then why are non-smokers subjecting themselves to a situation that will irritate them so much? Why not go to a restaurant that the owner has decided will be smoke-free?

To me, it makes as much sense as walking into a strip club and complaining about the naked women and lewd behavior.
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We'll be fighting in the streets with our children at our feet, and the morals that they worshipped will be gone.

And the men who spurred us on sit in judgment of all wrong, they decide and the shotgun sings the song.



125 SW
80 lb LR
330w PC
Euphyllia, Alveopora, Pachyclauvularia (Metallic Green and Daisy), Frogspawn, Torch, Gold Nepthea, Kenya Tree, Galaxea, Pulsing Xenia, various leather (umbrella, toadstool, fingers, devil fingers, lettuce)
Maroon Clown/White tip LT anemone, Powder Blue Tang, Female Swallow Angel, SixLine Wrasse, Solar Fairy Wrasse, Firefish, Fathead Anthias, Blue Mandarin, 3 Chromis, 3 Green Gobies
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Old 02-03-2005, 05:47 PM   #47
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what happens when smokers aren't allowed to smoke outside either. Is it true this has happend in california somewhere already? would this be considered taking it too far and forceing a non-smokers values on smokers.
I believe there are some areas that have deemed certain "areas around entry ways" to be smoking prohibited as well. Things like hospitals, schools and public buildings (such as court-houses, polices stations, town-halls etc) I know, I can see so many of you but if I have to show up for court, I shouldn't have to hold my breath to get into the building.
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Old 02-03-2005, 06:01 PM   #48
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well doorways wasn't what i was thinking. i mean a little further outside than that. sidewalks, parks, picknick areas, crossing the street. in your own car?
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Old 02-03-2005, 06:03 PM   #49
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I don't recall having heard anything like that, no.
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Old 02-03-2005, 06:33 PM   #50
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I know, the nerve of some people. On my walk to work this morning I had to walk between two buses that were belching deisel smoke into the air - a known carcinogen. Near my building, I could smell the chocolate from the bulk chocolate candymaker across the river. I'm sure that offends someone, though not me. In the summer, people ride motorcycles with VERY loud exhaust (and legally I might add). Very irritating and damaging to my hearing, by the way.
Clever argument, but just because one compares two things doesn't make them comparable. Preventability and health risk are factors to be considered. A cleanup of noxious fumes from buses is an ongoing effort, and the smell of food is hardly a health risk. Some risks are unavoidable results of modern life - smoke blown out by individuals is a voluntary act and thus not at all similar to bus fumes and the like.

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As a matter of fact, human beings are physically comparable to herbivores, yet we eat meat when we really shouldn't.
Except for the fact that our digestive systems produce enzymes designed to digest animal protein. Biologically speaking, we are omnivorous non-smokers by nature.
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