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View Poll Results: Does tobacco smoke bother you in restaurants?
Yes 22 61.11%
No 14 38.89%
Voters: 36. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 02-04-2005, 10:49 AM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alarmguy66
OMG, I love this quote! How can you deny its simple reality?

"If there are smokers in a restaurant, then why are non-smokers subjecting themselves to a situation that will irritate them so much? Why not go to a restaurant that the owner has decided will be smoke-free?

To me, it makes as much sense as walking into a strip club and complaining about the naked women and lewd behavior. "
You go to a strip club to see naked women and lewd behaviour. Your anaolgy is baseless. I don't got to a reasturant for smoke, I go there for food. Would you be upset if you walked into MyDonalds and there were naked women dancing on the tables? (well maybe you and I wouldn't... but you can bet that any parents around would be) You didn't bring your 6 year old into McD's for a boob show, you brought them in for a cheesburger. The same goes for smoking. I'm not bringin my kids into McDs for a lung full of tar, I'm bringing them in for an artery full of grease... er I mean a cheeseburger.
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Old 02-04-2005, 11:14 AM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyZ
Quote:
Originally Posted by alarmguy66
OMG, I love this quote! How can you deny its simple reality?

"If there are smokers in a restaurant, then why are non-smokers subjecting themselves to a situation that will irritate them so much? Why not go to a restaurant that the owner has decided will be smoke-free?

To me, it makes as much sense as walking into a strip club and complaining about the naked women and lewd behavior. "
You go to a strip club to see naked women and lewd behaviour. Your anaolgy is baseless. I don't got to a reasturant for smoke, I go there for food.

That's true, but let's change the quote to:

"To me, it makes as much sense as walking into a strip club for a beer and complaining about the naked women and lewd behavior."
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Old 02-04-2005, 11:20 AM   #63
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no, it still is a bad analogy. a "Strip Club" is a place with strippers, it's what you expect to be there. A reasturant is a place with food, thats what you expect to be there. What I'm complaining about, is like walking into a strip club and being acosted by religious fanatics screaming in my face that I'm killing babies. It's not what I went there for, nor what I expect to be there and really does ruin my enjoyment of the strip club.


((I should really try one of these strip club things one of these days. ))
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Old 02-04-2005, 11:25 AM   #64
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Well, haven't people come to understand by now that people smoking is part of the experience of dining out - and this at the approval of the restaurant owner?


Alright, analogy #3:

It makes as much sense as going to a strip club and complaining that some of the patrons are drinking beer - and it's upsetting your experience.
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We'll be fighting in the streets with our children at our feet, and the morals that they worshipped will be gone.

And the men who spurred us on sit in judgment of all wrong, they decide and the shotgun sings the song.



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Euphyllia, Alveopora, Pachyclauvularia (Metallic Green and Daisy), Frogspawn, Torch, Gold Nepthea, Kenya Tree, Galaxea, Pulsing Xenia, various leather (umbrella, toadstool, fingers, devil fingers, lettuce)
Maroon Clown/White tip LT anemone, Powder Blue Tang, Female Swallow Angel, SixLine Wrasse, Solar Fairy Wrasse, Firefish, Fathead Anthias, Blue Mandarin, 3 Chromis, 3 Green Gobies
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Old 02-04-2005, 11:35 AM   #65
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sorry, gonna debunk your analogy again

it's more like going to a strip club and trying to have a nice iced tea (come on, we can be humorus about this right? ) when the guy at the table next to me comes over and pours a shot of goldscholger down my throat.

Smoking is someone elses decision forced down my throat, literaly.
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Old 02-04-2005, 12:03 PM   #66
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Alright, no more analogies, but...

Isn't a smoking ban someone else's decision forced down restaurant owners' throats? I mean, the patrons can choose whether to go or not and aren't really forced to do anything.
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We'll be fighting in the streets with our children at our feet, and the morals that they worshipped will be gone.

And the men who spurred us on sit in judgment of all wrong, they decide and the shotgun sings the song.



125 SW
80 lb LR
330w PC
Euphyllia, Alveopora, Pachyclauvularia (Metallic Green and Daisy), Frogspawn, Torch, Gold Nepthea, Kenya Tree, Galaxea, Pulsing Xenia, various leather (umbrella, toadstool, fingers, devil fingers, lettuce)
Maroon Clown/White tip LT anemone, Powder Blue Tang, Female Swallow Angel, SixLine Wrasse, Solar Fairy Wrasse, Firefish, Fathead Anthias, Blue Mandarin, 3 Chromis, 3 Green Gobies
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Old 02-04-2005, 12:41 PM   #67
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well sure you could look at the smoking ban that way.

so everyone who doesn't smoke is then reduced to staying at home. That hardly seems fair.

You have to look at all the factors though. If you make legislation that forces a resturant to declare that their entire facility is either smoking or non then your'e forcing buisnesses to choose between one group of people or the other. (which gets a little too close to segrigation IMO) I think thats an unfair onerous on small buisness as they just don't either have the research information to make a good buisness decision, nor the econimical power to survive a "poor choice" long enough to revert their decision. Leaving it as "do what ever you want" as it has been in the past then subjects those who don't want to smoke, and worse, those whose health is in immediate jepordy by being exposed to smoke (chronic asthema sufforers) to a gamble every time they go out to eat, which isn't something someone should have to do. The only middle ground is something that was tried here in NY. Reasturants etc who wanted to have smoking were required to have physicaly seperated enclosures (basically glass walls in the dining area) with physically seperated ventilation systems. And this just didn't work out. Resturants complained about the cost of the requirements, people, even smokers, complained about the conditions of some of the smoking areas, in the end, it failed as it seemed no one was happy with it (smokers, non-smokers and buisness owners alike)
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Old 02-04-2005, 12:56 PM   #68
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Once again, the smoking ban really has nothing to do with the patrons - the separated and ventilated smoking sections that predated these laws took care of that rather well, for the most part. No, the smoking ban is for the benefit of the people who work in the restaurants - the minimum-wage-earning people who don't have the luxury of deciding whether or not to work in a particular establishment based upon its smoking policy. These people have no choice but to spend their entire working day breathing second-hand smoke.

I work in a laboratory with some dangerous, carcinogenic chemicals. These chemicals are an integral part of my job, and I freely choose to work there, but OSHA regulations require my employer to provide me with personal protective equipment . The same regulations require my employer to provide me with training, so I don't expose unprotected co-workers and visitors to these carcinogens. I have to follow specific procedures regarding the storage, handling, and disposal of these chemicals, so I don't accidently cook myself, or the FedEx guy who happens to be there delivering a package. Cigarette smoke IS a known carcinogen - especially if you're exposed to it all day, every day in an enclosed area, such as a restaurant. Aren't restaurant staff subject to and deserving of the same OSHA regulations as I am?
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Old 02-04-2005, 01:06 PM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyZ
well sure you could look at the smoking ban that way.

so everyone who doesn't smoke is then reduced to staying at home. That hardly seems fair.

You have to look at all the factors though. If you make legislation that forces a resturant to declare that their entire facility is either smoking or non then your'e forcing buisnesses to choose between one group of people or the other. (which gets a little too close to segrigation IMO) I think thats an unfair onerous on small buisness as they just don't either have the research information to make a good buisness decision, nor the econimical power to survive a "poor choice" long enough to revert their decision. Leaving it as "do what ever you want" as it has been in the past then subjects those who don't want to smoke, and worse, those whose health is in immediate jepordy by being exposed to smoke (chronic asthema sufforers) to a gamble every time they go out to eat, which isn't something someone should have to do. The only middle ground is something that was tried here in NY. Reasturants etc who wanted to have smoking were required to have physicaly seperated enclosures (basically glass walls in the dining area) with physically seperated ventilation systems. And this just didn't work out. Resturants complained about the cost of the requirements, people, even smokers, complained about the conditions of some of the smoking areas, in the end, it failed as it seemed no one was happy with it (smokers, non-smokers and buisness owners alike)

Not at all, non-smokers won't be reduced to staying home. If there's a market for non-smoking establishments, the beauty of our economic system is that someone will build one. By the results of this poll, it appears that so many people don't want smoke in restaurants, I can only assume that many business owners (and potential business owners) would be quick to establish non-smoking restaurants without government interevention. In America, money is NEVER left on the table. If there's a market for non-smoking restaurants, someone's going to supply that demand. Nothing's more sure but death and taxes.

Uh, oh, another analogy:

I notice no one is selling 8-track tapes anymore. Is it injustice that no player in the private sector has stepped up to supply the 8-track tape demand? Should the government step in and demand that all current artists and record labels record to 8-track tape because the private sector isn't answering the call?


I'm not saying that any restaurant should have any restrictions placed on it like "All Smoking" or "No smoking". A restaurant owner should be able to dictate any rules he pleases. If he decides smokers should smoke only in the bathroom, or outside, or in a two-foot square velvet-roped area, or nowhere on his property, or anywhere they want to - it's up to him. It's up to consumers to decide whether they'll patronize him or not. His success with customers will determine his fate.
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We'll be fighting in the streets with our children at our feet, and the morals that they worshipped will be gone.

And the men who spurred us on sit in judgment of all wrong, they decide and the shotgun sings the song.



125 SW
80 lb LR
330w PC
Euphyllia, Alveopora, Pachyclauvularia (Metallic Green and Daisy), Frogspawn, Torch, Gold Nepthea, Kenya Tree, Galaxea, Pulsing Xenia, various leather (umbrella, toadstool, fingers, devil fingers, lettuce)
Maroon Clown/White tip LT anemone, Powder Blue Tang, Female Swallow Angel, SixLine Wrasse, Solar Fairy Wrasse, Firefish, Fathead Anthias, Blue Mandarin, 3 Chromis, 3 Green Gobies
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Old 02-04-2005, 01:13 PM   #70
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No, the smoking ban is for the benefit of the people who work in the restaurants - the minimum-wage-earning people who don't have the luxury of deciding whether or not to work in a particular establishment based upon its smoking policy. These people have no choice but to spend their entire working day breathing second-hand smoke.
Why wouldn't a minimum-wage earner have a choice among minimum-wage jobs? There's lots out there. I don't know a single fast-food restaurant that allows smoking, for example. Many restaurants don't allow smoking by their own free will.
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We'll be fighting in the streets with our children at our feet, and the morals that they worshipped will be gone.

And the men who spurred us on sit in judgment of all wrong, they decide and the shotgun sings the song.



125 SW
80 lb LR
330w PC
Euphyllia, Alveopora, Pachyclauvularia (Metallic Green and Daisy), Frogspawn, Torch, Gold Nepthea, Kenya Tree, Galaxea, Pulsing Xenia, various leather (umbrella, toadstool, fingers, devil fingers, lettuce)
Maroon Clown/White tip LT anemone, Powder Blue Tang, Female Swallow Angel, SixLine Wrasse, Solar Fairy Wrasse, Firefish, Fathead Anthias, Blue Mandarin, 3 Chromis, 3 Green Gobies
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