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Old 02-04-2005, 07:36 PM   #71
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Is there a reason that a person cannot make it through an hour long meal without needing to smoke?

I promised myself that I would not get sucked back into this, but everyone is being so well behaved and I can't resist a good debate.

As a society we decide on what appropriate behaviors in public are. We cannot go streaking butt naked through the vegetable aisle at the grocery store just because we like to run around naked at home and are perfectly within our rights to do so at home. As a society we have said that this behavior in public is not acceptable . There will be members of society who disagree. We expect that, but most citizens abide by the rules.

So let me attempt an a " what if" scenario.

What if your child ( neice, nephew, etc) came home and told you that he asked the teacher for help today. The teacher starts to walk over to the child's desk, rummages in a pocket, pulls out a cigarette and lights up. The teacher then bends down to answer the question while exhaling smoke into the child's face. Not vindictive , they are just sharing the same space in a public building at the moment.

Smokers or not, the parents of the child would have that teacher's job. Why? The teacher has broken the rules of behavior adopted by society protecting the health and well being of their children. The public has accepted the fact that second hand smoke is unhealthy and parents do not want their children exposed during school hours.

What would your response be if the adminstration told you that rather than reprimanding the teacher, this was a public school, the teacher had a right to smoke in a public place and that you could choose to find another non-smoking school for your child?

To me the "a restaurant is a public space and you have a choice" argument does not hold. Schools are public , churches are public, hospitals are public, buses are public, theaters are public, airplanes are public, subways are public, and restaurants are public. The argument fails on the assumption that some places are more public than others. Public means public. The standard for behavior regarding smoking in public places has been established and restaurants are one of the last places to be in complience.

So, yes it is a choice to go into the restaurant. And yes, smokers say they have a right to their choice to smoke - and I agree. Choice goes both ways. If a smoker truly chooses to smoke ( tongue in cheek since nicotine is one of the most powerfully addictive chemicals used) then he should be able to choose when and where he smokes. Then it should also be possible for him to choose to delay his smoke until he is out of the restaurant. If he can't, then maybe he could choose to use a nicotine patch while in the restaurant. He could have his nicotine and I could have lungs that will not be filled with particulates that don't belong there.

The response of the lungs to inhaling smoke is to immediately expell it. Cough . Smokers learn to smoke. I don't want to learn that trick - it hurts.



8O
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Old 02-04-2005, 08:12 PM   #72
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No, restaraunts are Private Establishments, as are bars, and other businesses that have "Owners", unless of course the goverment that want's to control them is willing to subsidize the owners instead of making them pay to be told how they are allowed to run thier business.

Schools and Hospital are public areas.
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Old 02-04-2005, 08:27 PM   #73
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Good point on ownership .

I was trying to address the perception by previous posts that just because an establishment might be privately owned, codes of behavior can be ignored. For example, although a grocery store is privately owned, it is open to the general public and the owner cannot decide which city ordinances he will uphold. He cannot decide that fire codes do not apply to his privately owned store. Although I work for a private school, I cannot decide which conduct codes I will abide by. There are some behaviors that society will direct. This is why we vote. We vote for our city officials because we feel that our choice of candidate will best represent our interests. If the people of city in which you live decides to ban smoking in restaurants, then the will of the people has been heard.
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Old 02-04-2005, 08:47 PM   #74
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But the will of the people (that may not even be a part of this establishment) should not be forced on an individual person, esp when those people do not cut his cheque.

a Private School is the will of the patrons (since kids don't smoke)

a Private bar should be the will of the patrons, not the will of the public.

a Grocery store is the will of the patrons (and they dictate this)

Do not involve fire code, since this is a saftey concern for all humans, and done to protect them from accident not choice.
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Old 02-04-2005, 09:05 PM   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wizzard~Of~Ozz
But the will of the people (that may not even be a part of this establishment) should not be forced on an individual person, esp when those people do not cut his cheque.

a Private School is the will of the patrons (since kids don't smoke)

a Private bar should be the will of the patrons, not the will of the public.

a Grocery store is the will of the patrons (and they dictate this)

Do not involve fire code, since this is a saftey concern for all humans, and done to protect them from accident not choice.
Smoking on School Grounds - Federal Mandate No one is allowed to smoke - adults or student. Not even parents at a game.

If second hand smoke is determined to be hazardous - safety concern for all patrons.

Private bar - IMO different than one open to the public. A private club or lounge where people pay membership dues - smoking not a problem. Go for it.

One of the beauties of democracy - you can always disagree and try to achieve a change in legislation.
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Old 02-04-2005, 09:21 PM   #76
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I wonder if the same people who insist that smokers have rights would also support the right of people to smoke marijuana in their homes or the right for gays to enter into civil unions or even marry?

If not, I wonder how they on the one hand argue about individual liberty and freedom of choice for smokers but not for others whose behavior is less a threat to the health of the general public than is second-hand smoke.
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Old 02-04-2005, 09:22 PM   #77
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Yes, "If second hand smoke is determined to be hazardous - safety concern for all patrons."

Fine, I know toxic chemicals are bad to drink, so I don't ge where that's what they serve, but if others choose to have them, they should be allowed that basic right, if they know a place that serves them. (so if a sign on the door says, Toxic drinks are only served here, then I don't think I'ld go in, but that's my choice, it's obviously not concerned with my business)

All bars and restaraunts are private, the owner exclusively holds the right to throw you out because he doesn't like you, or for no good reason at all, and if you return he has the right to charge you with trespassing.

I think I've explained that the patrons of the school have deemed that it be a smoke free enviroment. so the law was put in place.

"One of the beauties of democracy - you can always disagree and try to achieve a change in legislation."

No, the beauty of democracy is you get to pick your dictator from a selected few that can afford it.

Quote:
If not, I wonder how they on the one hand argue about individual liberty and freedom of choice for smokers but not for others whose behavior is less a threat to the health of the general public than is second-hand smoke.
Without getting to involved with this subject, since it involves religion, Marriage is defined as the union of man and woman, this is the definition, to re-write that definition is to undermine the entire meaning.

It's like 18 year olds playing in kid land at McDonalds or Burger thing. they are kids at heart, but that's not the meaning of kid land..

(This has nothing to do with liberty or freedon BTW.)
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Old 02-04-2005, 10:48 PM   #78
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Our laws are not supposed to based on the religious views of any particular group. One of my favorite sayings is:

"God, protect me from your followers."

I don't see how anyone can argue for the trivial right to smoke based on "individual liberty" and deny rights under the law using personal religous belief as the reason.
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30 gal standard 55 lbs LR, 60 lb live sand, 10 gal sump/refugium. Urchin skimmer, mag7 pump, 3 x 96W PC combination 10,000K/actinic bulb, 2 blue LED moonlights
SG 1.024, temp 79.5, pH 8.4

Livestock I added:

1 skunk cleaner. 12 hermits: red, scarlet, blue. 15 or so assorted snails. Discosomas, Ricordia, Rhodactis mushroom corals, chaetomorpha (sump), 1 feather duster, Montipora digitata, Montipora capricornis, Montipora hispids. assorted zoos, Xenia, Kenya tree coral, green Sinularia, green star polyps, branching hammer coral, bubble coral, Devil's hand leather. Yellow chromis, purple firefish.

Hitchhikers: the usual suspects :crabs, bristles, urchin, mantis shrimp (now in exile in mantis tank)

List of possible/likely newcomers:

Feather duster. PJ cardinal, Bangghai cardinal, Firefish goby, Clownfish, Neon goby, Yellow watchman goby, Orchid dottyback. Various corals.
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Old 02-05-2005, 01:19 AM   #79
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definition:

" a. The legal union of a man and woman as husband and wife. b. The state of being married; wedlock. c. A common-law marriage. d. A union between two persons having the customary but usually not the legal force of marriage:"

part d is the ammended bit, prior to it's modification, it was strictly man and woman,

I said it involves religion because the concept is religious, not my comment (and that's why I won't go here with this debate, religion will always be an arguement, so with that we should get back on topic.)
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Old 02-05-2005, 01:42 AM   #80
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People who argue this "right" are the ultimate in self-centered, inconsiderate people, in my humble opinion. Don't forget that people WORK in bars and restaurants and have to breathe smoke CONTINUOUSLY
Weak argument IMO. People that take a job in this atmosphere already understand that this. Choice made.
Quote:
BTW, it seems to me that people would realize that they have an addiction and a SERIOUS problem if they need to stand huddled outside in the freezing cold in order to inhale smoke.
It's obvious you have never been addicted to Cigs, it's a difficult thing to beat.
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The fact that ANYONE would smoke in the presence of children ought to be handled as child endangerment
Do you understand that that is a serious charge?
I agree its a horrible choice, but government having more intrusion into our lives, taking away kids to state run orphan or jailing parents for being bad parents in this regard. Is that what you are suggesting? Or do you want just a handslap?
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